Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
I'm going to try and enlist everyone's help again. I have been following FreeBeeTony's threads and think we have the same issue. I could be wrong on that though.<br /><br />I have a 1995 Mercruiser 3.0 with conventional Prestolite ignition. I have this engine sitting in a 1974 Rally (built by Mirrocraft) 17' bowrider. I have the engine mated to the original 1974 pre Alpha transom plate and outdrive. I am also using the 1974 manifold and Rochester 2GC carb. I am using the old parts with the new engine to mate with the exhaust elbow and transom plate.<br /><br />This is what has been done;<br /><br />-Carb rebuild<br /><br />-New fuel lines between tank and pump.<br /><br />-Fuel tank cleaned out and verified good.<br /><br />-New fuel filters about thirty times it seems!<br />Complete new ignition system installed 8 deg BTDC and 40 deg dwell.<br /><br />-New valve springs on all cylinders<br /><br />-New spark plugs gapped correctly<br /><br />-Vaccumm is at 18 with a slight flicker when on the hose at idle (650-700RPM)<br /><br />-Vaccumm is abo****ely rock solid and steady at 19 when fast idled at 1800-2000.<br /><br />-Timing advance verified and working perfectly<br /><br />-Complete exhaust system verified to be clear of obstructions.<br /><br />This is the symptom;<br /><br />When placing a lot of load on the engine, the engine 'bogs' This is dependent on throttle position, NOT RPMs. If I bury the throttle as one would when pulling a skier out, the engine bogs. This bogging from out of the hole is usually around 1900 RPM, but it really has nothing to do with RPM. If I nail the throttle from 2500 RPM, it will do the same thing. If I slowly take my time and let the boat get out on plane with about half throttle, it will eventually speed up to about 3200 PRM where it runs beautifully all summer long. No popping, no bogging, just perfect. If I then try to add more throttle, you can hear the 'throaty' sound from the carb, but no more RPM. If you add more throttle, it will bog harder and you can see that the exhaust gets black and smoky. Somehow the air/fuel ratio gets out of whack and if I hold it in that 'bogging' area, it will eventually die by flooding. Once the boat is on plane and I start to trim the leg out, it will creep up to around 3800 RPM with full throttle, but it bogs a bit first, then clears it's throat a bit and goes to 3800 RPM. About 30 MPH. You can then feel the engine surge a bit at this speed. Throttle buried, it is very throaty sounding, and surges a bit, like it's going to develop full power, but it still just keeps this bogging feeling and sound.<br /><br />This is probably way too much information, but I am trying to be as descriptive as possible.<br /><br />I have done everything people have recommended me doing this summer and I would like to find out what it is.<br /><br />I am stressing that this symptom happens and any engine speed, not just at high speed since it seems people keep looking to valve float or other things. This is a throttle position, or load on the engine situation. What could cause such a major either over fuel situation, or under air situation because I saw the exhaust with my own eyes last night from behind the boat at speed from a tube and it was puking black smoke while my wife was killing the engine by applying too much throttle! If you back off the throttle during the 'bog' it clears up and runs well again.<br /><br />Thanks for everyone's help!<br /><br />Nicholas
 

ziggy

Admiral
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

it don't look like ya have done a fuel pump pressure test. maybe it's to high. it might be worth hookin one up to see if yer in spec though.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Does the spring loaded power valve piston move freely and is the valve on the "floor" of the float bowl operational?
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Looks like I'll pull the carb off again to verify all of this... What is the power valve piston and how do I make sure the valve on the "floor" of the float bowl is working? Do you think I should buy a new float since I just rebuilt the carb, but did not replace the float. I'll also try to find a gauge to test fuel pressure. Any ideas on where I can find one without haveing to cut the metal pipe from the pump to the carb?
 

rattana

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 12, 2003
Messages
413
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Do you have another carb you can beg or borrow from someone? Did this setup ever run good?
 

Yepblaze

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 1, 2001
Messages
1,686
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Just a couple of thoughts.<br /><br /><br />If the gear ratio or prop pitch is incorrect for the cobination it will definately bog.<br /><br /><br />Have you verified that the timing marks are correct?<br /> IE: TDC as indicated actually TDC
 

FreeBeeTony

Captain
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
3,991
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Nick, from what I remember......did n';t you piece this set-up together somewhat?<br /><br />I don't remember exactly.........but I think Bondo was helping you with this.
 

steve n carol

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 8, 2004
Messages
459
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

You asked, "Do you think I should buy a new float"...? What is th old one made of? is it saturated?
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Have you replaced your fuel pump? Does your sight glass/tube show any evidence of fuel?......JK
 

ziggy

Admiral
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

if ya do a fuel pressure test don't cut the metal fuel line. i went to the hardware store and got some hose barb coupleings so i could put a t right at where the fuel line connects to the carb.<br /> maybe ya got a fuel pressure gage. my vac. gage is a combo fuel pressre/vac. gage. see if your gage does both pressure and vac too.
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Answers to some questions;<br /><br />-Do you have another carb you can beg or borrow from someone? Did this setup ever run good? No. and No.<br /><br />-If the gear ratio or prop pitch is incorrect for the cobination it will definately bog. This is a 3.0L 181 in place of a 151 2.5L I think if anything it would overrev, not bog due to a 140HP instead of a 120HP. Since I am using the old 2.5L manifold I think it would only make 120HP.<br /><br />-did n';t you piece this set-up together somewhat?<br /> Yes, this is a 1995 181 coupled with a 1974 transom plate, outdrive, manifold, and carb.<br /><br />-Do you think I should buy a new float"...? What is th old one made of? is it saturated?<br />The old float was a black plastic like material. It was not saturated and floated well. I had a professional rebuild the carb for me.<br /><br />-Have you replaced your fuel pump? I have not. It seems good, and I don't want to just throw money at it if it is not bad. I will connect a pressure gauge to test it. There are no sight glasses on the pump or in the fuel system. I know it's getting enough fuel. The problem is TOO MUCH fuel, not not enough fuel. Or it's getting not enough air. the exhaust starts puffing black smoke when bogging.<br /><br />My vaccum gauge is also a combo gauge. I will go the hardware store and hook it up, hopefully today. Thanks for all of the responses.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

I'm sticking my neck out on this but it would appear the power valve is being actuated prematurely -- like the spring has gone weak so just a small drop in vacuum causes it to actuate. I agree that the fuel pump is likely ok since you have an apparent "too much fuel" situation.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

A 'Too much fuel situation ' can come from a ruptured diaphram, pushing the excess fuel into the carb through the tube that comes from the fuel pump to the carb. If you have a marine carb you either have a sight glass or the overflow tube mentioned above, if there is gas in that tube, your pump is on its way out......JK
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Now i understand what the overflow tube or sight glass is. I have the overflow tube and it is clear and free of fuel. I have also noticed that when the bogging occurs, I have looked down the throat of the carb and can literally see fuel 'dumping down the throat' it is only coming from the venturi cluster or that area somewhat though, not from the float bowl overflow at the top of the throat though. I haven't checked pressure yet, but hope to tomorrow.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

If you have no fuel in the tube you should be O.K. However, I don't think that fuel should be 'dumping' at anytime, other than the stream from the accelerator pump. I would talk to the person who re-built the carb. and see what he says.....I think something got missed on the re-build.......JK
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Originally posted by ntheyer:<br /> Looks like I'll pull the carb off again to verify all of this... What is the power valve piston and how do I make sure the valve on the "floor" of the float bowl is working?
When you remove the top of the carb, you will see the long rod with the spring around it that goes to the "floor" of the float chamber. Press and release the rod tip and it should move freely without any sticking or binding. The piston part is inside the top cap. When the motor idles and runs steady, the manifold vacuum 'pulls' the piston and rod upwards to disengage from the spring loaded valve in the "floor" of the float chamber. When the throttle is rapidly opened, the vacuum drops and the spring pushes the rod and piston back down to open the needle on the power valve which allows more fuel to the carb venturi clusters.<br /><br />If the power piston is carboned up, corroded or sticky, it can stay engaged allowing excessive fuel to cause black smokey exhaust and poor performance. If stuck in the 'up' position, it will cause bogging on acceleration and poor throttle responce since it won't allow the power valve to open.
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

How do I adjust the float level? Just bend the float up or down? I do not have the adjustment card any more.
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Also, just thought of something. I tend to remember that power valve to be slightly difficult to move when I had the carb open months ago. How easy should it be to compress and is there anything I can do to make it move more freely?
 

navigator336

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Messages
270
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

The power valve is held closed by vacuum which must overcome the spring holding it open. During hard acceleration (or attempted acceleration), your manifold vacuum drops allowing the power valve to open and dump extra fuel in. If it is sticking or has the wrong spring on it, it could cause an over rich condition with any drop in manifold vacuum.<br /><br />Have you tried a lower pitch prop? What's your max rpm?
 

ntheyer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
119
Re: Last shot to diagnose bogging problem!

Results from fuel pressure test: 6.5-7 lbs pressure at idle. No fuel in overflow tube at all. When revving up engine seemed to drop to 6 psi.
 
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