Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

tiresmoker · Sep 16, 2005

I took my resurected 13.5 foot fiberglass for it's first spin recently and it has no power! I checked the compression, and it had around 50 in each hole, but I'm really not a 2 stroke guy(I have six motors and ONE runs good)

, so I don't know if that's normal or not. Also it kinda feels like it could run a bit smoother, like maybe it's skipping halfway on one cylinder. It takes about 10 to 20 seconds for it to start spitting water out of the hole in the back, but I haven't had any time to check the impeller. Any ideas?

cheburashka · Sep 17, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

That's awfully low for compression. You should try de-carboning it (I use Seafoam) and checking the pressure relief valves on top of the head to make sure that they're releasing. I had a similar problem with the power with my '57 Evinrude 35 horse. I found that I had too as the timing of the linkage that opens the carb much slack in the throttle cable, so it was never making it to WOT. Check that, as well butterfly. Your manual will tell you how. If it is skipping on one cylinder there's a good chance that you have a bad coil. Ignition components are cheap, but replacing them takes a lot of time. I'd advise doing points, condensers, and magneto coils. Impeller function sounds good, although replacing it is good insurance. Maybe a good project for the Winter?

spectrum17 · Sep 17, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Just finished resurecting a 1959 356hp Super Seahorse, now it runs like a champ. Had a siimilar problem with skipping and true enough, the coils were arcing to the block. Also, as far as spitting water, mine is doing the same as yours, so hopefully thats correct

Dan

tiresmoker · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Thanks for your input, guys! I pulled the "exhaust cover?" and looked at the pistons and rings yesterday and found some scoring. The drive was getting some water in the oil, so I pulled that apart to see why. Someone had very brutally installed the drive last time, and the water pipe gaskets/grommets had been all but completely torn apart. It basically needs a drive/water pump/powerhead rebuild (I guess), along with some linkage parts and some miscellaneous due to age and wear. Can someone here (maybe who has already done this?) tell me if it would be worth my time and effort? Also if the cylinder walls have scoring into their sides (not aluminum transfer, but gouges in the cylinder) how does one repair that?

Paul Moir · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

"Is it worth it" questions are always difficult. We can't see your engine, so we don't know if it's a corroded old heap or a pristine engine that saw a bad day. We also don't know what sort of outboard market you're in and what's available to you for what prices. Finally, since you're new here, we're not sure if you're the type that likes hauling apart old outboards, dealing with breaking bolts and such just for the fun of it. We have our suspicions though since you've got an old engine and you've found Iboats. That said, let's have a look at prices: Lower unit seal kit is about $25. Add about $10 for sealant and a "special tool" you'll need (a long peice of 5/16 threaded rod or a bolt). Complete new water pump (best bet) $70 Power head rebuilt - old cylinders are bored out and oversized pistons & rings fitted. You also need gaskets, etc. The pistons and rings are NLA, but not too hard to find. Figure about $500 at least, if everything else in the engine turns out good. An option for the power head is to get a used one with good compression off ebay. '58 (w/thermostat), '59 35hp will fit fine, as will '60-'70 40hp. Johnson or Evinrude. These sell pretty darn cheap because they're so common. I don't see any great deals now; just two 40hp engines. One has bad compression, and the other one has no compression numbers "bores look good" and aparently no head.

tiresmoker · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Man! You sure know your way around to find all that stuff so fast! I've been looking all morning and haven't come up with anything but an impeller!

I'm a professional auto mechanic, so digging in greasy stuff comes natural to me. This motor actually is in pretty good shape, aside from needing a gear set for the lower end, a water pump, having a few stripped holes (which I'm pretty good at fixing by now) and some bearings. And of course the list will go on and on once it gets taken apart more.

I just haven't the slightest idea where to find parts for this thing. It does sound cheaper to fix this one than to give in and get a 2005 90hp 4 stroke on financing, though, as I have been tempted to do!

Paul Moir · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Well, new is better. But I think 4 strokes is two too many.

But these old Big Twins were top of the line in their day. Outside of race engines, that 35 was the very best thing you could buy from Johnson/Evinrude in '57, and second only to the Fat 50 V-4 in '59. There's essentially two sources for parts. One aftermarket supplier, Sierra , and then there's factory parts from the dealer. The Sierra parts are sold by Iboats, NAPA autoparts (State side), Carquest, and a million online websites. Their part numbers start with 18-. The factory parts are available from the dealer, maxrules.com, ishopmarine.com, and a few others. Their part numbers are 6 digits long, mostly starting with 3 for your engine, but also 2, 4, and 5. Anything normally replaced (ie, wear parts) you can get from them. Water pumps and impellers, seal kits, gaskets, etc. Sierra doesn't know some of their gaskets cross to your 35hp, so if in doubt ask here. Durable parts like castings and such are available from outboard junkyards like tcoutboards.com. Trouble parts are pistons, rings, bearings that sort of thing. I know a couple people who picked up oversize pistons and rings for 35hp engines from Stone & sons marine (http://www.outboard-parts.com). Fortunately, the bearings normally don't wear much so you can find good used ones. I've been pretty sucessful keeping an eye on ebay for my latest project; a '65 33hp which is sort of a ressurection of the '57 35hp. So far 2 +.020 ring sets and 1 piston, and still under $100 paid out.

If you need P/Ns for anything, just ask!

tiresmoker · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Thanks! It sounds like you know everything that I wish I knew! I have yet to purchase a repair manual or parts blowup for this motor, and most of the parts sites are kinda sparing in the old motor department, but I'm going to try my best. If I can't come up with something, I'll be sure to ask you. I'm glad to hear this motor isn't a pile of junk!

I pulled the head last night, the lower cylinder, the one that doesn't foul out, has a mark at the lower part of the cylinder where fluid would gather that looks like it used to be rusty. It's very smooth there though, like it didn't damage the surface, just left a stain. The cylinders don't have any scoring on the sides, and look like well polished metal. The pistons, from what I can see, are slightly scored (slightly), but I'm not seeing something that could bring the comp down to, let me see, about 47 psi, upper and lower. The rings are still free and have tension against the bore, although not much. I'm checking the compression with the plugs out, and the motor spinning free with the starter(as free as it can with the comp tester in one cylinder). By the way, I found a powerhead on eBay from a '57 35, and was wondering if that would fit. The dude said it had the "smaller square bolt pattern", and I saw no small square bolt pattern on mine anywhere. I also found a '60 40 powerhead, and the guy wants $250+shipping. What do you think? My powerhead looks OK, speaking from a mechanic's perspective, and the scoring on the pistons is so slight that it could be polished off, literally. Since I have little need of the pull start, but will definately leave the pull start mechanism in place, I was wondering what someone like yourself would think about some bstrd like me taking the comp relief valves out and welding the holes shut? I could just clean them and put them back, I guess. I gotta get to work, talk atchya later.....

tiresmoker · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Would these rings be right for a standard bore?: 18-3910

tiresmoker · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Also I see Sierra shows a pic of a piston with two rings, whereas the ones in mine have three? I couldn't stand my displayed name

so it's Eric in Montana now.

Ahhhh, much better!

Paul Moir · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

How did the head gasket look? It's not unheard of for these to blow when an engine overheats. You may want to goop it up and retest compression. Head bolt torque is 216-240 inch/lbs. As a comparison, my 33hp was actually worn out (a very rare thing to see in an outboard). It had a significant ridge up at the top of the ring travel, and the end-gap on the rings was way outside the .007-.017 tolerance - more like 3/16"! But still it read 100 psi. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the bores look good, you should be getting decent compression. If it's not the head gasket, it's possible the rings are stuck somewhere. That's not totally uncommon on these outboards if they aren't regularly decarbed. Coke builds up in the ring lands and glues them in place. A '57 35hp won't fit. It hasn't got a thermostat and so the base pattern on the powerheads is a little different. Squarish instead of roundish. Same goes for the '60s 28hp and 33hp engines, and *some* '58 35hp engines. $250+shipping seems a bit on the high side, but if it's in perfect condition... There's far too many of these outboards out there to get fussy about preserving them historically IMO. Click on my "Man-next-to-house" icon. So do whatever you want with it. They dropped the compression relief on the later 40hp engines 'cause it was too much trouble I think. No chance the compression relief valves were stuck open eh? Not likely since you didn't say the head caught on fire.

Sierra doesn't have pistons that fit. Your bore is 3.0625" and it's impossible to find modern ones like that (at least I never found any). I'll see if I can find the OEM part numbers for oversize pistons & rings. Or perhaps some other Iboater has them handy?

tiresmoker · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

The head gasket looks like new. Really. No head fire, no, but the valves look pretty hairy with carbon, and fuel was leaking out of them when I ran the motor, leaking enough to drip. Tonight when I get home I'll slip them out and see if anything is holding them open at all. I don't see how I'd end up with even comp numbers with leaking relief valves, though. Another thing I just remembered that I forgot before: when at idle sometimes it would just POP like fuel igniting in the exhaust and then die. Sort of like it suddenly got really lean or something. It would start right back up and idle fine for whatever amount of time it felt like

after that, before doing the same thing again. Thanks for your help, Paul! (That motor is SWEET!)

tiresmoker · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

The upper cylinder relief valve had some squished carbon on the seat, and was leaking fuel more than the lower. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that the rings are worn out, so I'll disassemble the powerhead tonight to check all the rest of the stuff tonight. Everybody have a good Wednesday!

Paul Moir · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Keep the rod bearings in sets so if they're good you can re-use them. Also keep track of which rod is on which cylinder. The rod caps are cracked from the rods, so keep them together in the proper orientation. Be gentle with their mating surfaces. When you get to the rods, you'll need a 12 point 5/16" socket to remove the rod bolts. You can use a box end wrench to remove them, but you'll need a socket to re-install them. Sears carries that socket (it can be really hard to find). Crankcase centre main socket head cap bolts are 3/8" allen. Oh, before seperating the crank halves, you have to remove the two alignment pins. They are tapered, so you must drive them out the *correct* way.

tiresmoker · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Thanks for the tips, Paul, it'll be my first real 2 stroke rebuild. You probably realize how nice it is to be guided by someone that knows how to do this. If you work on your own cars I'd be glad to offer any info I can.

CATransplant · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Eric, You're in very good hands with Paul as your guide. I have what is essentially the identical outboard, as well, and will step in if Paul's not around to answer your questions. I haven't done a tear-down of the powerhead, though, so I'm not much help there.

tiresmoker · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

That's great to hear, and thanks for surfacing, as well!

racinmason · Sep 22, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Hey Eric.Looks like we're pretty close to one another.I'm resurrecting a '60 Whitehouse with a 59 35hp Super Seahorse.Just got the motor running well,and hope to have it out soon.I do have some good links for parts,and a little bit of experience from working on mine(mostly hair pulling,make sure you get a manual).If you ever run into a problem or want to B.S.,or if you decide not to rebuild,send me an e-mail.I'm sure you're in Great Falls once in a while.Keep us posted on your rebuild! racinmason

tiresmoker · Sep 23, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

I don't know if this kind of question is allowed on this forum, but do you know anybody in our area that needs to get rid of a good motor, 35hp or over? I'll keep all of you guys in mind when I need to find parts. Thanks for offering your assistance!

racinmason · Sep 23, 2005

Re: Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

This is kind of short notice,Eric,but there's an auction down in Whitehall tommorrow(Saturday,Sept.24th)at 10A.M..Looks like there are quite a few outboards.One of them is a 35hp Johnson Seahorse.Does'nt say what year or whether it's a super seahorse,but seeing as most of the stuff is from the50's & 60's,there could be something you could use.I was thinking about going to look at a couple of old boats they had listed.Lots of old cars & trucks.Looks like the guy was a collector.Let me know if you need the specifics! racinmason

Low power and slight skipping? 1959 Johnson 35 Super Sea-Horse

Cadet

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Cadet

Cadet

Admiral

Cadet

Admiral

Cadet

Cadet

Cadet

Admiral

Cadet

Cadet

Admiral

Cadet

Admiral

Cadet

Cadet

Cadet

Cadet