Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Maxx102

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Messages
43
Hello,

I have seen the VHF radios being sold online here in the Marine Store section iBoats and in catalogs such as Overtons and I have a question or two.

Since it is VHF isn't it a requirement to have a radio license from the FCC?? Or is it a marine version of a CB radio (no license requirment)

Do you think it would be a wise investment for a 16 foot open bow to have one that at most would go on to the Mississippi River or inland lakes?
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
28,074
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Some years ago (15??) they did away with the requirement to have an FCC license to operate a VHF Marine radio.

As to wether you need one on your application, do you have a cel phone? Does it have coverage on the river?
The VHF will receive weather reports and maybe fishing reports. The fishing reports are mostly hot air. However, there is a free Digital Selective Calling service as well as an auto distress system that a VHF will provide. It will need to be hooked to a GPS to send your position, should you activate the auto distress feature.

Do you need the auto distress feature on the river? If so, the VHF may be a good idea. If not, the cell phone may suffice.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Boating on the Mississippi, i would definitely have a VHF. every piece of commercial equipment on that river has a VHF. VHF is also monitored by the Coast Guard, and other authorities in that area. cell phone 911 will get you the local police, who are not necessairily familar with the river. vhf, will get you help from neighboring boats, and the water police.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

The navigable channel on the upper Mississippi can get narrow in spots and meeting a large tow of barges on a blind bend in the river can get your heart beating quicker. A VHF radio is necessary in my view to know where the barges are.
 

mphy98

Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
1,422
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

I believe a marine radio should be standard equipment on all boats. The cheap investment can save lives. They are easy to operate, and just think how many times we have all seen stranded boaters on small lakes, let alone a large one with many fingers and forks.
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
4,530
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

I believe a marine radio should be standard equipment on all boats. The cheap investment can save lives. They are easy to operate, and just think how many times we have all seen stranded boaters on small lakes, let alone a large one with many fingers and forks.

Bravo !!!!!
As for the license,
You do NOT need a commercial operator license to operate the following:
  • Ship stations operating only on VHF frequencies that do not travel to foreign ports or make international communications (unless the vessel carries more than six passengers for hire, or the ship is larger than 300 gross tons and is required by law to carry a radio station for safety purposes).
  • Shore radar, shore radiolocation, maritime support or shore radionavigation stations.
  • Survival craft stations or EPIRBs.
  • Ship radar stations, if (a) the radar frequency is determined by a nontunable, pulse type magnetron or other fixed tune device, and (b) the radar is capable of being operated exclusively by external controls.
  • Coast stations operating on VHF frequencies with 250 watts or less of carrier power.
  • Aircraft stations which operate only on VHF frequencies and do not make foreign flights.
  • Aircraft radar sets, radio altimeters, transponders or other aircraft automatic radionavigation transmitters.
  • ELTs or aviation survival craft stations used solely for survival purposes (testing only).
I have a license because I occasionally guide and my boat holds 8.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Having a VHF aboard any boat is a good idea. I use a handheld, but it is limited in terms of transmission distance. That said, I use it mostly to listen to other boats, pushboats, etc. If I do need to go out in the Mississippi, which is seldom, I can communicate with the locks and commerical traffic on the river.

For operation on the Mississippi, being able to communicate with "The Captain of the Port" may be necessary. If you are not near a major port, this may not be an issue for you, but there are "security zones" in some port areas. In my location, I have to check in with "New Orleans Traffic" on channel 67, to exit the locks into the river.

Should you need assistance, being able to communicate with other pleasure boats, commercial traffic, the Coast Guard or marine patrol, etc., can make things much easier and much safer. If you have to communicate with the Coast Guard, typically you will establish contact on channel 16, and then switch to channel 21 alpha or 22 alpha.

I also recommend having a GPS aboard, even if it is just a hand held unit. As was mentioned, many dash mounted VHF radios can be linked to a GPS to provide exact location during auto distress transmissions. Even if you don't have that capability, being able to tell rescuers exactly where you are could save your life in a worst case scenario, or just make the situation much easier to handle in a less serious situation.

I'm glad to hear folks here pipe up about having a cell phone aboard too. Since many boating areas are well within cellular coverage, they can be a very effective tool for communicating in general, and in the event of an emergency. In fact, some regions have 911 call centers that can pinpoint your location via the cell phone's GPS lock, which occurs when you dial the emergency number. This is not always true, but it is really helpful to search agencies when it is the case. I can also tell you from direct experience in doing SARs for a couple of agencies, that a cell phone can be a much more effective way to communicate, than a marine radio.

One additional point about cell phones, is to bring a charger with you when you go out in the boat. If you have a cigarette lighter in the boat already, you have an immediate ability to charge the phone. Even if you don't have the lighter receptacle, installing one and wiring it into the boats electrical system is very easy. With this capability, you can remain in contact for much longer than your cell phone battery would otherwise allow you to - something that could also play a large role in becoming rescued, if something bad happens. The same is true of a handheld VHF radio that has a rechargeable battery in it - I keep a charger for mine in the boat too.
 

jhebert

Ensign
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
903
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

...isn't it a requirement to have a radio license from the FCC?

There are two licenses involved in operating any transmitter from the FCC:

--the station license
--the operator license

For a VHF Marine Band radio on a vessel which is voluntarily equipped, neither a station license or an operator license is needed if the vessel is in waters of the United States. If you visit a foreign port, you generally will need both licenses in order to be strictly legal.

More at

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing&id=ship_stations
 

Boatist

Rear Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
4,552
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

You have got a lot of good information here and it true you no longer need a license. However you still are required to know and follow the rules.
You are required to listen to channel 16 the Calling a Distress Channel. This is what makes the radio a important saftey iteam.
When you put out a MayDay call that you are sinking then you do it on channel 16. Every boat with a radio should hear you unless they are talking on another channel. Coast Guard will respond if they hear you. also every boat hearing your MayDay Call is required to copy down the information.

Coast guard will normaly move you to Channel 22A or Channel 6A if 22A is busy. Channel 21 if for coast Guard vessel only.

Range of a handheld VHF radio over water is about 2 miles plus the range of the other station. A fixed mount radio with 25 watts and a 8 foot 6db gain antenna has a range of about 5 miles plus the range of the other station.

Talking to a Coast Guard station with a high mounted antenna can be 80 miles or more.

Advantage of a VHF radio over a cell phone. A cell phone is great if you have a phone number of someone who is close and can help but if call 911 will likely get the hwy Patrol who will try and transfer you to the police or Fire. If you give them you Latitude a Longitude many will still not know where you are.

VHF Mayday Call on Channel 16 then every boat within radio range should hear you. Also they will likely be pretty close and on the water ready to help. You do not have to know their number. Coast Guard will normally respond first and get the nature of your distress and number on board. Then get your location and move to to another channel. In areas where VHF use is common then I would trust the VHF 100 times more than a cell Phone.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Don't discount the value of a cell phone. I can say through direct experience that the Coast Guard will routinely attempt to obtain a cell phone number from a distressed boat, if one is available and the boat is in cellular range. Police agencies that become involved in a 911 call, also give the cell number to the CG as a matter of routine. The reason why is simple - because the quality of the communication is often much better. I've even used the numbers myself, when doing a SAR for the USCG. I can think of a number of situations where I have contacted the distressed boater directly, to get better info on the nature of the problem, where he/she is, etc.

I do agree that a VHF radio offers certain advantages that a cell phone can't duplicate, but they are not without problems. One of those problems is that the "listening range" of a VHF on a boat (handheld or fixed) is usually longer than its transmitting range. Despite popular misconception, the distance of an intelligible VHF transmission is not purely a function of "line of sight" issues. Transmitter power has a lot to do with it, because of atmospheric attenuation.

Also, where line of sight is an issue, cell phones can sometimes be a better bet. For example, one peculiarity of my boating area is that we have many cell towers along the ICW. This is true because the cellular companies discovered a long time ago, that there is a significant market offered for them by the commercial traffic along the waterway. Since many of our boating areas here flank the ICW, recreational boaters benefit too. Others who boat along lake shorelines, rivers, etc., would be expected to enjoy similar communication capability.

As for GPS coordinates, I can say that, when I do SARs for the Coast Guard, one of the first bits of information that they want to give me, is the coordinates of the distressed vessel. In fact, where they don't have actual coordinates, they will give me estimated coordinates. The sharing of information between police agencies and the USCG, or water patrols (Wildlife & Fisheries, in my area), is similar to the cell phone info - if 911 has been provided with coordinates, they can and do pass that info on to the CG.

That said, the one problem that I have run into with GPS coordinates, is navigating through the lakes and bayous of my area, in order to get to the specific location. My handheld GPS does not have a moving map display, which handicaps me quite a bit in that regard. I am sometimes able to get around that issue by printing out a Google Earth map of the area involved before I launch, but there is no doubt that a better GPS would be an advantage. The good news, however, is that I can decline a SAR for that reason, and the CG vessels do have the more sophisticated gear. Coast Guard helicopers also avoid the problem altogether, by simply flying directly to the known location. My point is that, no matter where the info comes from, its a heck of a lot easier to find someone, when you know exactly where they are.

Good info on 21A and I apologize for the mistake. I have communicated with the USCG on this channel at their request, but when I am talking to the Guard, its usually because I am doing something for them. I was also unaware of 6A use, so that info is helpful.

At any rate, I think the bottom line here is that having a VHF available is always a good thing, and could easily become a lifesaver in a bad situation.
 

jhebert

Ensign
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
903
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

...One of those problems is that the "listening range" of a VHF on a boat (handheld or fixed) is usually longer than its transmitting range. Despite popular misconception, the distance of an intelligible VHF transmission is not purely a function of "line of sight" issues. Transmitter power has a lot to do with it, because of atmospheric attenuation.

Between any two stations, the path loss is reciprocal, that is, it is the same for both directions. Any antenna gain is also reciprocal. Since all vessel transmitters are limited to 25-watts, all vessels transmit at the same power. If you hear someone, they should be able to hear you.

The principal influence on receiving range is the local noise environment of the vessel. Radios operated in the presence of local noise sources will not be as sensitive as radios operated in a quiet environment. Also, some stations may have intentionally increased the SQUELCH setting to reduce their receiver sensitivity. And some receivers offer a LOCAL MODE in which they operate at reduced sensitivity. But otherwise, most modern receivers are quite similar in sensitivity, and also quite good.

About the only really high-power shore stations are NOAA Weather Radio stations which often operate with a transmitter power of 1,000-watts. Of course you will be able to hear those stations at a distance which exceeds your coverage with 25-watts, but, if you can hear another 25-watt station, he should be able to hear you, as long as your transmitter is working properly and the other guy's receiver is not de-sensitized with local noise.

I am certain the FCC studied the conditions under which most vessels would be operating, their antenna heights, and the anticipated ranges, when they allocated 25-watts of power to the VHF Marine Radio Service. They just didn't pull that number out of thin air.

Shore stations for Coast Guard which transmit with high power are often supplemented with remote receiver sites which permit them to extend the range of their reception. You might be hearing a shore station from its main tower, but they might be hearing you on a remote receiver that is relayed to them.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

With respect to vessel to vessel coms, assuming that each has similar antenna height, antenna quality, installation quality, etc., I think you are right.

That said, coms with the USCG to/from a recreational boat can be quite different. I touched base with some folks that I know in the USCG this morning. While the radio operator that I spoke to didn't know the exact wattage of their VHF transmitters, he confirmed that they are well above vessel radio output. He said that the range from their towers is a minimum of 50 miles, and is usually further. He also confirmed something that I thought would be the case - the repeaters that the USCG uses are transceivers (transmit & receive), not just receivers.

As I have seen in practical usage, and in just monitoring channel 16 all of the time, it is common for a small boat to be able to hear the USCG, but not be able to effectively communicate back to them. The most obvious reason for this is the difference in transmitter power.

Just to be clear, I absolutely support the wisdom of having a decent VHF aboard. Being able to monitor and communicate with nearby vessels is an important safety factor. In some areas, a VHF also provides an easy and effective means of communication with locks, drawbridges, harbor masters, etc.

What I hope folks understand, however, is that current level of cellular coverage in boating areas, is a great supplement to VHF communication. This fact is exactly why USCG Aux boating safety folks stress the value of a cell phone to boaters, during courtesy inspections. Its also why those same locks, draw bridges, harbor masters and the like, also publish their phone numbers and paint them on their facilities. The point here is simply to take advantage of every device available for effective communication, in an emergency or otherwise.
 

Fishstick

Seaman
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
56
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

As a former USCG Radioman working a group station in Ketchikan Ak for several years, I will offer that your VHF can make the differance between life and death. Most CG comm stations are connected to several repeaters via microwave for a specific geographic area. I remember receiving a distress call at 3:00 am on a mid-december morning in Alaska from a small boat taking on water. When we plotted the position (back before GPS was common), it mapped out on the Mississippi. I called the vessel for position confirmation and they were in fact on the river. I contacted the respective CG station on the river via telephone and they could not hear the distress call. We coordinated the rescue with me in Alaska talking with the boat on the Mississippi relaying info to the station via telephone. I was just one of those weird things.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Interesting. I would have never thought that repeaters near the Mississippi, would be part of the network for a station in Ketchikan.

BTW - do you happen to know the VHF transmitter output for a typical USCG tower these days? Frankly, I'm just curious.

Man, I don't know how you survived Ketchikan! Its a beautiful place, but all that rain would have driven me nuts! I was once under consideration for the airport manager's job there, but pulled out of the running after finding out that the average number of days with rainfall, is something like 320 per year! I also managed to weasel out of a potential assignment in Juneau right out of "A school." I ended up with CGAS San Fran instead, which was a fun place to live "back in the day," when you could actually afford off base housing.

Semper P!
 

Fishstick

Seaman
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
56
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Good question and to be honest I don't recall our output watts on the VHF. Back in the mid 80's when I was in, the RM's operated the radios but the telephone techs were the rate that maintained and repaired and set up the power. We ran 6 VHF repeaters on various mountaintops that gave us roughly 650 square miles of coverage before the Juneau picked it up for the northern portion of the panhandle. Kodiak ran the big comms station for the rest of the state. We also ran 1 UHF for aircraft and a 651 collins receiver that we could much dial up just about anything. Our UHF cranked out about 1000 but the VHF was significanly lower. We used to listen to the russian rock-n-roll stations at night on the collins.

Ketchikan was by far the best assignment I had (once you get used to the rain) and Gods country for the outdoorsman. Not many other places you can take a 14ft lund out and catch halibut clearning 100 lbs. I spent my first year in Frisco attached to Tracen Alameda while it was still boot camp, then Petaluma for A school. If they would have left me in Ketchikan, I would have stayed in forever.....

The mississippi case was a fluke due to some weird atmospheric condition and we were never able to re-create it. Generally, VHF is not prone to skip conditions like that.
 

jhebert

Ensign
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
903
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Coast Guard stations appear to have a lot of remote base stations that are linked to central radio monitoring stations. I would not call them repeaters in the sense that term is usually used, that is, a system which picks up any signal on the input and retransmits it in the same band. In the western Great Lakes the entire Canadian radio watch is stood by a post in western Lake Superior. It is connected to remote base stations all over Superior and Lake Huron.

A Collins 651S-1 would be a dream HF receiver.

I have not seen any details of the new Coast Guard RESCUE 21 system, but I would not be surprised to learn it is much more sophisticated than previous radio systems the Coast Guard has used. Modern communications systems are quite amazing. Most law enforcement agencies now use networks of trunked radios which can relay signals much like an internet. A friend of mine is a senior law enforcement officer for a county agency. I was in his personal vehicle on a Saturday summer evening when his PREP (handheld) radio came on with a call for him. We were about 250 miles away from his county. The call was automatically routed to him by a state-wide network of trunked radios. It sounded like we were a mile from the base.

For a technical but simple examination of direct VHF radio communication links, see

Marine VHF Radio Communications
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VHF.html
 

Fishstick

Seaman
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
56
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

Roger that. I discharged from the guard in 1987 and during the six years I was in, I witnessed advances in communications. When I first reported to Ketchikan the fax machine in the commcenter was one where you had to wrap the paper around a cylinder and place the handset from the telephone in the machine. Our teletype was the old grey giant ASR28 with the ticker tape. Four years later, we were running the mod 40 teletype, CW (morse) was history and satalite comms were making an appearance. I can't imagine what they have in this day and age. I'm currently in the law enforcement field and manage a unit where we monitor low profile inmates via GPS tracking. All of our alerts are routed to the case managers and myself linked through our respective blackberry from a center located three states away. It's getting to the point where I don't need a physical office as I can manage both my units via blackberry.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Marine VHF Radio - General Questions

One of the relatively new technologies that I've become very fond of is cellular GPS service. I just switched cell phone services and bought a phone that has the ability to link the the service provider's GPS utility. One of the things that I have discovered about this service, is that the phone can be used as a rudimentary marine GPS.

I can't enter waypoints, or any of that sort of thing, but my phone does have a moving map display available. By selecting that option while in the boat, I can get a visual reference of where I am. I've already used this capability once, after missing a cut from one lake to another. I hadn't been in the area for awhile, and was crusing along a shoreline looking for the cut that would have allowed me to take a different route back to the ramp. For some reason, I missed it and began to realize that I had gone too far. I was well withing cellular range, so I just loaded the GPS mapping module and immediately confirmed what I thought to be the case.

Modern technology is definately a cool thing!
 
Top