MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

newport dave

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I am looking for anyone who may have information on ignition scope analysis of MSD igniton waveforms. Have looked everywhere I can think of and can not find any info.<br />Thanks,<br />Dave<br /><br />MSD Ignition waveform showing four firing events at idle (Mercruiser 502Mag - all cylinders overlaid) <br /><br />
MSD1
 

Bondo

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

Originally posted by Trent:<br /> Why????
That was My Question...........<br />I just didn't want to look Tooo Stupid................................. :D :D :D
 

chuckz

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

What do you want to know? If you research "capcitive discharge ignition" you can find a lot of generic information about this type of ignition. The fact that the pulses are there tells you that the ignition system is working. You can't tell anything about timing without a reference pulse. For example a crankshaft position sensor output.<br /><br />Also, beware of digital scopes, it is easy to get false peak amplitude readings.
 

newport dave

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

Originally posted by Trent:<br /> Why????
I guess I don’t understand the question – Why do ignition waveform analysis? Or Why do it on an MSD system?<br /><br />In this case, I have a customer with a modified (600HP) Mercruiser 502Mag and I am trying to determine the proper plug gap. The engine builder says gap them at .28, MSD says .45 to .65. Sure, I could use “trial and error” but it is inaccurate and time consuming. <br /><br />But my question really goes far beyond that. After spending hundreds of hours researching ignition waveform analysis, collecting, printing out, cataloging, comparing, and analyzing data from all types of marine ignition systems, I can easily diagnose any of the following conditions in a standard inductive (conventional or electronic) ignition system:<br /><br />Worn or improperly gapped plugs<br />Bad / weak primary ignition components<br />Bad / weak secondary ignition components<br />Compression problems (even determine whether they are valve related or not)<br />Lean / rich condition<br />Clogged or leaking injectors<br />Timing/advance problems<br /><br />With a capacitive discharge ignition system, most of the data I see with the inductive system is just not there, or it is so different I don’t know what I am looking at. <br /><br />I can see clearly that there are multiple firing events on each compression/ignition cycle (decreasing number of firing events as RPM increases), and that there is no dwell period or current limiting going on. Also the firing voltage is about the same as it is with an inductive system. But that’s about it.<br /><br />I have spoke with a couple of guys at MSD, but they had no information about scope analysis of their systems.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br />Dave
 

Buttanic

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

Seems like you are looking for a complex answer to a non-existant problem.
 

newport dave

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

Originally posted by Buttanic:<br /> Seems like you are looking for a complex answer to a non-existant problem.
I realize that this question is a little unusual. I guess I was/am hoping to find someone out there who is as much of a freak as I am. <br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the responses, I welcome any comments/questions/suggestions!<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Dave
 

daveswaves

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

This may not answer your question but I will try to give you some insight into what I see happening on your waveforms. <br />First It is clear that you have an adaptive spark type msd unit, each sucessive spark shown is different based on what is happening in the cylinder. <br />Your first spark did not produce ignition (thats OK)you can see the difference in the negative part of the cycle,<br />there is no "ringing or oscillation" in the negative pulses, the ignition is re balancing all the energy that it used in the spark itself and re plating or transferring any electrode material that the spark plated over (most of it anyway).<br /><br />In the second spark the ignition knew that the first one did not produce ignition,<br />it adjusted the energy a bit higher and you can see the change in the waveform. The voltage is higher and the negative portion is more of a sine wave and actually develops a slight positive voltage as the impedence of the burning mixture changes. :) <br />Right after the positive "peak" on the negative portion the ignition knows the mixture has ignited :) <br />and it quickly hammers a bunch of negative spikes to rebalance the ignition ready for the next pulse. :cool: <br />On the third pulse the ignition sends the same energy to the plug (remember it worked last time so why not try again) the voltage is a little lower because the fuel mixture has ignited,<br />flame spread has occured :) <br />and the impedence of the mixture has gone down.<br /><br /> On the negative pulse of this wave form you can see that the slope of the curve as it goes positive is just slightly longer,<br />the mixture has changed impedence slightly and the ignition knows that the mixture is fully ignited. :) <br />You can see slight variations in this waveform as each cylinder fires, there is always tiny variations in each cyl, each stroke, with variations in temp, fuel mix, valve overlap etc etc. You can see them here, they are normal. :) <br />The fourth pulse is redundant, the ignition knows it has achieved combustion, it fires anyway and effectively captures a "profile" of the results of ignition ready to adjust for the next suck squeeze bang and blow.<br />The ignition rebalances itself again and you can see the large number of negative pulses to balance all the positive energy that has been expelled. The waveform after the last pulse is "ringing" and is just the residual energy dispersing itself in the highvoltage circuit (coil secondary).<br />With regard to plug gap I would follow the builders reccomendation (.028) The builder obviously knew this was a marine application and that the engine would be run at high rpm under high loads. Since it takes more time to make a spark jump a larger gap, and you have less time to do it at high rpm the smaller gap is called for.<br />Larger gap is useful for automotive applications for fuel ecomomy at cruise.<br />As far as timing goes, talk to the builder, he will know how much total advance he wants.
 

newport dave

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Nov 21, 2004
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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

daveswaves,<br />Great stuff! That is exactly the type of information/observations that I was hoping someone would know and post. I have spoke to the guys at MSD again, and they tell me that there is a guy on their staff who has more info on the subject, but he will not be in until tomorrow. I will post it when I get it, for those who are interested.<br />Thanks,<br />Dave
 

jimmythekid

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

daveswaves good stuff, but is your explantion assuming that the pickup is placed on the plug wire and not the coil wire?
 

jimmythekid

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Re: MSD Ignition - Question for Techs

all cylinders over laid all <br />I will shut up now :)
 
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