Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Sand Bass

Seaman
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Jul 17, 2002
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Here is a post I found on another boating forum. The poster is "John from Illinois" who previously posted here on a regular basis. He is well respected for his knowledge of outboards......<br /><br />I had the opportunity to attend a dealer meeting in Stuart, FL last week and driving boats was part of the meeting. I thought I would share my thoughts on how some engine/boat combinations performed.<br /><br />The first ride was in the "infamous" 29 Angler with twin 225's - A counter rotating DI Evinrude on the port side and a 4-Stroke Yammie on the starboard. This boat set-up made its debut at last years Miami Boat Show. This craft was driven by one of the field reps (BTW Rowdy, Mr. Eves says "hey") and he actually had some positive things to say about the competitions motor. Both motors are propped to turn their manufacturers max w/ OEM stainless 3-blade props. When the boat left the slip, the Yammie was the only engine running - you could only tell, by the sound of the tell-tale hitting the water - VERY quiet, until Pat shifted it into gear, it made a very loud "clunk", no apparent shifting tricks either. Next he fires up the Evinrude - yup, it drowned out the quiet of the 4-stroke. With both engines running, the boat accelerated onto plane in a boat length and a half (6 people on board). Both engines quickly reached max rpm as they were trimmed out and the boat cruised into the sound at 54/55 MPH. There was no noticable torque steer and the boat tracked straight. The Yammie 4-stroke seemed noisier than the Evinrude at WOT.<br /><br />Next, both engines were throttled back to about 3500 rpms. We could converse in normal tone of voice at this rpm. The throttle was advanced on the Yammie and the boat quietly and slowly surged to port. The Yammie was throttled back to 3500 and now it was the Evinrudes turn - when the throttle was advanced the boat jumped to starboard and a couple of us actually had to catch our balance, the torque on the DI is instantaneous. We also played around with minor throttle changes between 3500 to 4500 rpms, the Evinrude does "growl" right around 4-grand, but one of the dealers says "Its the sound of power."<br /><br />For the next part of the demo ride, the boat was stopped, the Evinrude turned off and trimmed out of the water. The throttle of the Yammie was dropped, the bow came up and we plowed water for a full minute and a half. A couple of us even clawed our way to the bow - we couldn't force the boat on plane. Next, you guess it, the roles are reversed... Trim the Yammie up and drop the hammer on the Evinrude - about 17 seconds later, the boat IS on plane (nobody walked up to the bow in an attempt to transfer weight forward), building up speed (made it to 32/33 MPH).<br /><br />This boat has also been rigged with the 225 Honda 4-stroke in place of the Yammie, we're told it performs the same way with the Honda.<br /><br />Stay tuned for more (I'll add to this thread as my time permits). And if anyone has questions, fire away.<br /><br />Later,<br />John
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
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977
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

John posts here sometimes.<br /><br />"Both motors are propped to turn their manufacturers max w/ OEM stainless 3-blade props."<br /><br />I'm curious as to what those props were? Can you provide that? Were they the same pitch and diameter? <br /><br />"This boat set-up made its debut at last years Miami Boat Show. This craft was driven by one of the field reps (BTW Rowdy, Mr. Eves says "hey") and he actually had some positive things to say about the competitions motor."<br /><br />Along with this comment I curiously noticed the data posted here resembles Evinrude's own test of their 225 Rudes on their 29' Angler (speeds, rpm, times, etc).<br /><br />Who's boat is this and who set it up? I am assuming this is Evinrude's own test and they set it up...not Yamaha. ? :)
 

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I read a similar article in "Trailer Boats" magazine a while back. Same one?? I'll try and scare it up. I think in the article the prop sizes were mentioned.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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4,698
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I was priviliged to drive that boat last year. It is amazing how the motors differ in performance. Both motors were propped at 5900 rpm, since 6000 is the redline. The Yamaha has a 2:1 gear ratio and used a 19" prop. Evinrude has a 1.86 ratio and used a 17".
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Ahh, there you have it.<br /><br />At 5900 rpm the Yamaha turns the prop 2950 rpm. The Evinrude 3172 rpm. Even though the Yamaha's prop rpm is lower, the larger 19 pitch prop will give it less holeshot and create less efficiency at lower rpm due to prop slip. Do the math. An 18 pitch would've been perfect for this comparison, with a 17 probably outperforming the Rude on this particular boat.<br /><br />17 seconds to get this boat on step with the Rude is a long time. Obviously without the proper prop on the Yamaha the boat isn't going to make it up. Also, the 3500 rpm range talked about is the Rude's optimal, but not the Yamaha's. I saw no mention of fuel efficiency.<br /><br />There is no doubt a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke will perform differently. They should be set up that way too.<br /><br />I believe this test was done by Evinrude under their set-up and their testing parameters. Of course they're going to make the Rude look better. ;)
 

Franki

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Feb 16, 2002
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Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Well then Mr Forky...<br /><br />What prop and pitch would you put on the Yammy to even things up if you could??? taking into account the different gear ratios size and pitch.<br /><br />I was under the impression that if when opened right up, if the engine can get to its max rpm, then its proped more or less right..<br /><br />but tell us the prop you'd put on the yammy, and maybe we'll all write them and insist on an even fight (pun intended :) I'd like to see the rude proped and tuned as best they can, and yamaha prop the yamaha as best they can.. and then compare.. <br /><br />(or have an unbiased but knowledgable mag do both.)<br /><br />But if the ficht still won.. would you accept it??<br /><br />incidently, SandBass, did they say anything about the fuel usage????<br /><br />regards<br /><br />Franki
 

Forktail

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Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

"But if the ficht still won.. would you accept it??"<br /><br />Sure, why not? It might very well still win. I am not doubting that the 225 Rude is a performer. I'm sure it is. In fact it may very well be a better choice for those primarily concerned with holeshot time, and top speed. <br /><br />I question who is doing the test, how the test is performed, and if the testing is unbiased. Again, of course Evinrude is going to make their outboard look better. We don't really know what those guys did...right? <br /><br />"What prop and pitch would you put on the Yammy to even things up if you could??? taking into account the different gear ratios size and pitch."<br /><br />As I said, I believe a 17 pitch would out-perform the Rude. And an 18 would be almost apples to apples. I would want to look at diameter, cupping, and rake also...just to be fair.<br /><br />"I was under the impression that if when opened right up, if the engine can get to its max rpm, then its proped more or less right.."<br /><br />Exactly. And the fact the boat supposidly could not get up on step with the Yamaha leads me to believe the outboard was not at its max rpm. If it was at its max rpm and not planing the boat, then it was doing some serious cavitating or slipping. If it is lower on power/torque than the Rude (as they would lead us to believe), then it must be propped appropriately. That is my point.<br /><br />"but tell us the prop you'd put on the yammy, and maybe we'll all write them and insist on an even fight (pun intended :) I'd like to see the rude proped and tuned as best they can, and yamaha prop the yamaha as best they can.. and then compare.. "<br /><br />Better yet, why don't we have Yamaha do the test instead of Evinrude? We could at least have them mount the single engine run in the center of the boat where it performs as intended, instead of opposite sides of the transom.<br /><br />I wouldn't trade my 225 Yamaha's for nutin. Been there, done that. ;)
 

Franki

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Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

yep,, its personal choice alright..<br /><br />I wouldn't mind seeing yamaha doing the test either.. be interesting to know..<br /><br />IF big B was doing this test that is... then we could look at the opposing results, and draw a middle line...<br /><br />I still think the best test would be to put one motor on the boat.. play and play till you get it proped perfectly for each one.. measure absolutly everything, then compare the results.. <br /><br />and have a mixed bunch of people biased to both.. then have them look over each others sholders to check everything.. <br /><br />Then we'd get some real reasults you could make some conclusions from...<br /><br />Anyone know of that happening anywhere ???<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Franki
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
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Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I may not post here as often, but I'm still around. Go here:<br /><br /> http://www.boatsetup.com/cgi-bin/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000752 <br /><br />and read my second post in the thread. Keep in mind, all the outboards in these comparison tests are propped to turn at the upper end of their manufacturers recommended WOT rpm.<br /><br />Later,<br />John
 

Franki

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Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Only other thing I would add, is that if the yammy was proped badly, the boat would not have tracked straight with both motors running.. ditto if it was slipping or cavitating.. <br /><br />And since an awful lot the people who either drove the boat, or were on it, were experianced boaters in the industry... It makes sense that if it was cavitating or slipping.. they would have felt or noticed it...<br /><br />The example in this case could be better.. but I refuse to thing that the knowledgble guys on the boat wouldn't have noticed if the Yammy was not at max rpm's or was slipping/cavitating..<br /><br />Unless you think big B also sabotaged the yammies tack as well....<br /><br />No doubt the yammy would have gotten on plain if it was the only weight on the back and it was in the middle..<br /><br />Its just possible that the offset position and extra weight of the two mothors put the test into the Fichts favour.. where any extra torque would make the big diffence..<br /><br />If thats the case, and big B did setup the boat, then that would be why wouldn't it.. ?<br /><br />Since they drove out with just the yamaha, I'd think that maybe they were not big B people... why emphasise the quietness of the big 4 if you didn't have to...<br /><br />If I was trying to impress people with a louder outboard.. I would have come out with the louder one,, that way when you started the yammy, noone would notice the differce as they'd not hear it over the other...<br /><br />just some thoughts..<br /><br />regards<br /><br />Franki
 

ob1jeeper

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
167
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Again... A LOT of opinions floating around regarding 2 vs 4 stroke OB's... But as yet I have seen little, make that NO (like in: ZIP, ZERO, NADA) facts generated in UNBIASED tests, shared with the readers of EITHER discussion board...
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I say do an endurance test. Rig two identical 29' Anglers, one with twin 225 Yamaha 4-strokes and one with twin 225 Evinrudes Ficts. Run them around the coast until they quit. Last one standing wins. ;) <br /><br />It's odd that Evinrude uses a 17 pitch on their 225 outboard when tested with the Yamaha 225, yet they use a 19 pitch on the same boat when testing their own twin 225 Evinrudes. Why would they drop pitch when the Yamaha is mounted?? I also see where Yamaha's 19 pitch is a 15 1/4" diameter OEM, and Evinrude's 19 pitch is 14 3/4" diameter Viper. We all know larger diameter props are slower.<br /><br />It's also odd that the Yamaha/Rude test included 6 persons aboard, yet top speed remained 55 mph. This is about the exact top speed of Evinrude's test with their own equal twin 225's ...with just 2 people aboard (55.6 mph). 4 more people weigh about 800 lbs. You'd think it would make more of a difference. After all, the Yamaha/Rude single engine test shows the Evinrude about 5 mph slower and a second longer to plane than the single engine test with their own twins. Something just isn't jiving. <br /><br />If you compare the Yamaha/Rude test posted above to the performance data at Rude's site for the same 29 Angler/225 combo, many questions arise.<br /><br />How bout that endurance test? :)
 

BillP

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Aug 10, 2002
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3,290
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I'm with Forky on the prop. A smaller diameter, different blades and possibly more pitch may have made the difference. I'm real surprised that "expert" boat guys looking for accurate numbers didn't have a few props to change out for the evaluation. For me to believe the test they would have had to use maybe 6 different props on each motor...3 & 4 blades with different diameters & pitch.
 

evin300

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Jun 4, 2001
Messages
384
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Ah yes, Denial is the first stage, as a revolutionary design begins its long ascent to the top! Someday I will be yelling (CAPS) I told you so! Go Evinrude!
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
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977
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I hope that's true even300. And with Bombardier's commitment, that "long ascent to the top" might not be so long. :) <br /><br />Denial? Nah. Unless you're racing or weight is a factor, 4-strokes are truly more enjoyable to own. To disagree with that would be denial. ;)
 

evin300

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Jun 4, 2001
Messages
384
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Nice retort fork, I look forward to the future. ;)
 

BillP

Captain
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3,290
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

evin300,<br />Denial is saying one does everything better than the other. Don't read into my post that I am pro 4 stroke either. I currently own both 2 and 4 stokes outboards and for my use the 2s is still king. I just don't see that the engine set ups on that demo were done right if they didn't swap a bunch of props.
 

evin300

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jun 4, 2001
Messages
384
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

I hear ya Bill, Its just hard for me to believe that B would be so silly as to not give the competing motor the best possible set-up, I would think the dealers have been through enough in recent years, without having some trick played on them. Time will tell the truth though.
 

BillP

Captain
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3,290
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

evin300,<br />In fairness to those tests guys, they may have done all the prop swapping before the test...but in the nature of competition I suppose they may not have worked too hard at making that Honda look too good. It would be interesting to see Honda's running a test vs the 2 stroke Bomb.
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison

Regardless of how these guys set the outboards up, the bottom line is that they set them up different. Different gear ratios. Different props. Opposite sides of the boat. No big deal. I'm sure the Evinrude is a great performer and may very well have better holeshot and top end if those are your concerns. I'd still like to see an endurance test between the two. :)
 
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