My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

[avimgod]

So, I finally got around to digging into my floor to get a better look at the soft spot in the floor...

I was able to pull it apart with my hand.

Water is resting on TOP of the fuel tank... I will suck it out with my shop vac eventually... BUT

it appears someone previously decided to cut out a section of the floor, and when putting it back together used PT 3/8 plywood rather than marine grade, AND didn't use any resin to seal the wood...

You can see where the PT ends, and the glassed wood still is...

Not sure WTF they were thinking...

All the wood UNDER the repair was also PT dimensional lumber, and rotten even worse than the flooring was.

I will be removing the entire floor, all the seats, and re-doing everything, only re-doing it the RIGHT way this time, found a good source of AB rated exterior 7ply 3/4 plywood, $33 a sheet, and will be using 4-5 sheets total, epoxy, 2 oz CSM, 1.5 oz woven, and PLENTY of new good wood...

I also took pics of the Captains seat that came with the boat, I will be adding a second one of these on the other side, making the rear a full bench...

And the NEW (03 repower) 35 hour or so drivetrain is AWESOME!

So the effort has begun... I will keep this going as long as things keep going...

 

[boatflipper]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Looks like you have a very nice project there! Once you are done, the peace of mind you will have will be unreal!!
What do the stringers and transom look like?

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Looks like you have a very nice project there! Once you are done, the peace of mind you will have will be unreal!!
What do the stringers and transom look like?

From what I have seen so far (limited) they are rock solid...

BUT

2 years ago, the floor was solid too... The wood I removed so far (pictured and rear seats) I was able to remove with my hands, just pulling it apart, so who knows, but what I have been able to get to in the bilge has a NICE coat of bilgecoat on it

The wife came out an actually acted interested in me getting it fixed for a change...

I also started her up to blow out the cobwebs.. 1st start in a little less than a year, and it cranked right over... runs like silk...

NOW I just need to figure out the balancing to add ballast to the bow, or move the gas tank (if the stringers are bad) as the 350 is roughly 150 lbs or so heavier than the original motor.

Once I have the floor out I will be 1/8 inch drilling the transom and stringers to check on their core conditions... I actually feel like I caught it early as the rest of the floor is still solid... but if I am doing 1/4 of it I might as well just overbuild the whole thing right?

 

[deltatango]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Hopefully I catch you out on the James soon. I just tore into my Renken Cuddy, stringers, floor, and all. I wanna put the Exciter in this weekend but I know I'll never finish the Renken if I keep playing when I should be workin

Lemme know if I can help with anything at all

 

[MTribe08]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Looks like a cool project and should be really nice when its done right! I've been told if you are using epoxy, you won't use CSM..only if you are using Poly. Might look into that. Good Luck!

 

[marine4003]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

From the pics that almost looks like OSB..NOT for use ANYWHERE..even homes.

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

From the pics that almost looks like OSB..NOT for use ANYWHERE..even homes.

It is definitely ply, 4 ply, interior grade.... not only did the layers fall apart, the wood fell apart in my hands (in the rotten parts).

I should be digging into it deeper tomorrow, hope to get most of the floor, and the remaining structure removed... then to order the glass and resin, and another captains chair... buy the lumber and hopefully start the rebuild next weekend.... hope to hit the water before the end of next month (and hope to have all the glass work done before the weather gets too warm round here... almost hit 80 today, was still over 60 a little while ago when I went outside..

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Looks like a cool project and should be really nice when its done right! I've been told if you are using epoxy, you won't use CSM..only if you are using Poly. Might look into that. Good Luck!

I have 2 suppliers that have said CSM and Epoxy are OK, but I will try to verify BEFORE I buy / install as I only want to have to do this ONCE... and hope to avoid having to do any rework... I will be doing some smaller (possibly seat) panels BEFORE I work on the floor to get the hang of the materials I get..

I suppose I could just say to heck with it and either stick with polly (although the cost is now offset by the increase in extra work)... or If using the epoxy, I COULD just stick to the woven glass... hmmm more deciding to do... more work by sticking with the woven glass, or more work and go with CSM....

 

[jonesg]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I like the speed of working with poly resin, 12 minutes and its already gellin.
With the unwaxed poly you can keep right on adding repeated layers without sanding. Epoxy is great but I don't like the waiting. Epoxy is a beach to sand.

Anyway looks like you're off to a good start, really inspect the stringers and transom, a soft spot in the deck is a typical sign of bad stringers.
You ought to consider replumbing the tank too, fill and overflow hoses, its a lot easier with the deck off. If the hoses are over 10 yrs old they should be replaced due to ethanol deterioration.

 

[rayjgu3]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

that does look like a pretty good project .
I do have a thought I'd like to bounce off you people here.
what about using plastic deck boards or acrylic sheet as opposed to wood?
there is a bit of price difference but you probably wont ever have to do the job again once done.

just a thought, feedback welcomed
I am new to boating & am looking at replacement for the wood in my boat

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

that does look like a pretty good project .
I do have a thought I'd like to bounce off you people here.
what about using plastic deck boards or acrylic sheet as opposed to wood?
there is a bit of price difference but you probably wont ever have to do the job again once done.

just a thought, feedback welcomed
I am new to boating & am looking at replacement for the wood in my boat

I had thought about using some style of composite panels, as opposed to Plywood, but what I found was it is a hard sell for the cost to meet the compressive and strength of plywood.. and plywood properly sealed will last for years and years to come (20+).

I think the issues most of us are having, is original build quality, materials used in the original builds, "repairs" done over time and storage of the boats over their life spans..

My issue appears to be more the quality of a previous repair... not a lick of any sealant on the wrong materials... it is cheaper to do the job once the right way, than to do it the wrong way several times...

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Well, more fun ensued today, I had at one point contemplated just patching the floor, and getting to work on the seating... but my curiosity got the best of me... and I am glad it did... found LOTS of rotten wood today, and a bubble in the "skin" of the fuel filler hose... SOOOO floor is 30% out, front seating is totally demolished, and almost ALL of the old upholstery is out (just need to finish removing the stbd side panels...

Even more surprises today, the Chaparral literature I have says my boat came with a 31 gallon fuel tank, but the tank under the deck (the rotten section of deck for those following) is a 40 gallon Moeler made in 91 (she is a 90)

I ran my dremel down the seams on the front and sides of the bad panel, and the entire thing lifted out...

stringers on either side of the tank seem to be a little discolored on the top edge, but appear dry, there was some discoloring around the captains chair base (where the PO drilled through to mount the seat) so I cut that section out... and to my surprise the glass and resin (not penetrated all the way through the glass) stayed on top of the foam, but the wood lifted right off...

and once I got all the wood ripped out of the back end, I found some spider cracks at the top of the transom, in the glass to the swim platform...

Port Side

Stbd side

I will probably drill the transom to check the condition of the wood, and if the wood is good I will grind the glass at the top and re-glass this area (contemplating a vacuum bag to maximize the strength)

All in all a good day, I feel like I got a lot done, but still have SOOOO much more to do!

This is still fun...

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Something else just dawned on me... is it normal for builders to NOT glass the tops of the stringers, but to have the sides glassed, and glassed to the deck????

I found this to be the case a more than one place, stringers glassed to the deck, but NOT glassed over the top of the stringer...

stringers look to be 3/4 marine ply, and other than a few spots where the tops are wet the glass appears to be bonded well on the stingers...

 

[Boat Show addict]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Sorry to see that you've got sooo much work ahead of you, but glad that it's finally being done right. I'm contemplating a similar project for my 1991 21' Raven so I'm going to closely monitor your posts. Keep working on it and get back on the James. I hope to head out from Osbourne landing this coming weekend. I would have done it this past weekend, but I was putting in new carpet and replacing bellows. Keep the pics coming..

 

[Mostly Harmless]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Something else just dawned on me... is it normal for builders to NOT glass the tops of the stringers, but to have the sides glassed, and glassed to the deck????

I found this to be the case a more than one place, stringers glassed to the deck, but NOT glassed over the top of the stringer...

stringers look to be 3/4 marine ply, and other than a few spots where the tops are wet the glass appears to be bonded well on the stingers...

None of my stringers were glassed over the top, just up the sides, they were also 3/4".

Why not just use Marine Grade to really do the job right? I am using 13 layer Marine grade plywood on my project and it looks and feels much better then any other plywood I have seen. It is expensive but when I cover that floor I am going to feel much better then using anything else.

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Sorry to see that you've got sooo much work ahead of you, but glad that it's finally being done right. I'm contemplating a similar project for my 1991 21' Raven so I'm going to closely monitor your posts. Keep working on it and get back on the James. I hope to head out from Osbourne landing this coming weekend. I would have done it this past weekend, but I was putting in new carpet and replacing bellows. Keep the pics coming..

We ussually launch out of Osbourn Landing, do some swimming by the beach, tubing around there, or out by Tar Bay (watch out for the catfish though).. it has been about 18 months since it has been in the water... but SOON...

None of my stringers were glassed over the top, just up the sides, they were also 3/4".

Why not just use Marine Grade to really do the job right? I am using 13 layer Marine grade plywood on my project and it looks and feels much better then any other plywood I have seen. It is expensive but when I cover that floor I am going to feel much better then using anything else.

I have been trying to find convenient source for 3/4 Marine grade... only difference between it and A-B exterior is the glue... but as I plan to fully encapsulate with glass I think the marine grade might be overkill... I will keep looking for a source close to me, but if I can't I'll go with the A-B exterior..

 

[Mostly Harmless]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

We ussually launch out of Osbourn Landing, do some swimming by the beach, tubing around there, or out by Tar Bay (watch out for the catfish though).. it has been about 18 months since it has been in the water... but SOON...



I have been trying to find convenient source for 3/4 Marine grade... only difference between it and A-B exterior is the glue... but as I plan to fully encapsulate with glass I think the marine grade might be overkill... I will keep looking for a source close to me, but if I can't I'll go with the A-B exterior..

Gotcha, it's not the easiest thing to get, good luck!

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Gotcha, it's not the easiest thing to get, good luck!

FWIW, A dremel works AWESOME for cutting the FG holding the deck to the hull, until smoke comes rolling out of it!

Forecast is for increasing clouds tomorrow, rain on Friday (maybe it will wash away all the dust I made today) and then I get all day Saturday and Sunday to grind... and grind... and grind... and grind....

More of the floor came out today, and I measured for the sun pad and rear bench..

Sunpad will end up 38 x 80
Seat will end up being 78 inches wide, 31 inches tall, 18 inches deep, and the seat will be 12 inches off the deck (allows for a 19 inch seat back).. old jump seats were 12 inches deep, 18 inches wide and 10 inches off the deck... so to me the new seating will be a huge upgrade!

I plan to have a "wall" as the front of the engine bay, covered by carpet and hidden by the bench (when installed).. that way if we are heading out for some fishing, the bench can be removed...the sidewall trim will be extended to the engine bay wall so there won't be empty space when the bench is removed..

more to come later...

 

[Fisherball]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

FYI-Pressure treated wood is not treated to be water or rot proof, it's treated to prevent bugs from eating it real fast. At least that's what a lumber salesman from a local yard told me on a job site.

 

[avimgod]

Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

FYI-Pressure treated wood is not treated to be water or rot proof, it's treated to prevent bugs from eating it real fast. At least that's what a lumber salesman from a local yard told me on a job site.

That is 100% accurate, The pressure treatment is with a insect poison. I will be using exterior grade b-b or b-c rated Plywood (the exterior grade wood IS treated to resist rot, there is no 100% rot prevention, but the exterior grade and marine grade are VERY close to one another, only major differences are the interior ply allowances (exterior grade can have but joints on the inner layers, marine grade cannot, AND the marine grade is supposed to have NO inner layer voids... but that isn't 100%...

I will be fully encapsulating the wood with glass and resin, and replacing all the 3/8 with 3/4.. jury is still out on the stringers, but everything I have seen so far is telling me they are OK, just need to wrap the tops with glass... I am considering cutting them down 3/8 of an inch to allow the deck height to remain the same with the thicker deck!

As I will be fully encapsulating the wood, and still would if I get Marine grade rather than the b-b exterior grade, I believe I will be fine with the $32 a sheet b-b (c) as opposed to the a-a (b) marine grade at $54 a sheet.. the difference in price will be about $120 total if I get away with only 6 sheets...

That is enough to get 2 more sheets of wood, and the dimensional lumber to make the seat framework... or pay for the ICOM...