My well is not well....HELP!

12Footer · May 16, 2004

My well pump lost prime, and I couldn't prime it again. And I do not know what I'm doing. The basic info first; It is a 2" well casing over 75ft deep, but when I pulled the 1" PVC suction pipe out, it was only 20ft long, and only wet on the last 2 feet. The horizontal 1/2HP pump was mounted about 60feet from the well, by the house. I bought a vertical 1HP jet pump, and am mounting it at the well. I've allready dropped a new 1" suction pipe to 50feet (3 ten foot sections of sced40 PVC, and two 10ft sticks of galvanized to the well cap), with a foot valve. The orginal pipe had no foot valve. I'm running 220VAC to the well, where the old pump ran on 110VAC at the house. I haven't fired-up the new pump yet. I still have to finnish mounting and plumbing it. But just before cutting the old pump offline, I tried to prime it on the new well....no-go. The old pump had a single 1" intake, the new pump has a 1.25" intake, along with a 1" "drive vent"? So here's the questions I have; 1. Can I simply cap-off the "drive vent" on the new pump, or must I use it somehow? Remember, my casing is only 2", so I cannot run two pipes down the casing. The single setup in the instructions shows a jet/foot valve assembly, but there is no way I would be able to get that thingy down my 2" casing. 2. Do I have to incorporate that jet attachment somehow, or will the pump draw water without it? Thanks for any sugestions.

POINTER94 · May 16, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

12 footer, You have an interesting but common issue with jet pumps. The only way you can incorporate a single pipe system, (and plug the drive hole) is if you have water within 25 feet of the surface. A pump doesn't actually lift water it evacuates atmosphere from the suction pipe and therefor the atmospheric pressure around the pipe actually "pushes" water up the pipe and into the pump for pressurization. If it is greater than 25ft you must use what is known as a "packer" style jet. It will go down your 2" well and it seals to the walls of the pipe with "leathers" that will swell up and create a seal to the sides of the casing. The casing therefor can be used as the "drive" pipe and allow you to draw water from increased depths. You are in this way "pushing" water up the pipe instead of lifting which again is limited to about 25ft. With a jet you can lift upwards of 200ft depending on hp and jet design. Things you will need include a 2" casing adaptor, an appropriate jet to the make and model of your pump, (one size does not fit all), a working and appropriate sized pressure tank, (air over water or hydropneumatic), a foot valve, and correctly sized wire as you have doubled your horsepower. Never, Never, Never start pump without first priming pump. In a matter of seconds you will destroy the mechanical shaft seal. Make sure your prime fills the entire suction pipe and the body of the pump. If you post the make and model of the pump I would be happy to specify the exact parts you need to make this perform correctly. Trust me there is a jet that will go down your 2" well casing!! FYI if you try to run this without the jet you may have difficulty creating adequate pressure to actuate the pressure switch on the high side. You will skew preformance towards volume and lose out on the pressure end of the design. I believe what you had in the old pump was called a shallow well jet pump and the jet is incorporated into the "nose" of the suction end of the pump. You may have nothing wrong with the old pump. Please provide specs on it and I will let you know if the motor is hitting spec based on amp draw. If you had no foot valve it is not a surprise you could not prime it. You were simply filling the well. The verticle design is a superior "deep well" design but you must incorporate a jet for this to work to your performance curve. You may want to re-evaluate your decision as it is sometimes easier to use a horizontal "convertable" or shallow well configuration. How deep is it to water? What is this used for? (Irrigation, domestic water system ?) What is the size of your pressure tank? When sized correctly and installed correctly you can expect 10 plus years of good service. Pump life is measured in terms of cycles and not hours of use or years. The larger the tank, the better it is for the pump. Sorry I keep adding to this but things keep coming to mind. A larger pump is sometimes a disaster. You are frequently better off with a slightly smaller pump than larger. The larger pump will have shorter and more frequent cycles and because a pump's life is measured in terms of cycles bigger is actually worse. Chances are you have a pump made by my company. Feel free to call me at 1-800-562-2106 x8347 after 10.30 your time and I will be happy to walk you through your issues.

Kenneth Brown · May 16, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

I know who I'm going to with well questions now.

12Footer · May 16, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

LOL,. I hear ya, Kenneth. And thanks for the awesome info, Pointer. You have answered a miriad of "next-questions" also, with your description of the different types of pump. I bought this vert shaft pump for the silliest of reasons...I was tired of low volume, and wanted the areator to fill more rapidly than the house demand pump drew. The old pump did that, but barely. Maybee I have chosen a nightmare....In order to place that jet/foot valve assy on the end of the well pipe, I'll first need to remove the well pipe. It was allmost impossable to get it down there by myself.I inserted the three PVC sections as an assembly with a foot valve installed ,by myself, and used a 'wadd' of duct tape around the coupling to keep it from dropping out of sight. Then, I attached one stick of galv to that, lowered, rewadded the end, attached the second galv pipe, lowered,'wadded' ,attached the well casing adaptor, and secured it...again,alone. The thought of pulling that puppy out is scaring me. The pump I purchased was a Flotech 44 series. 1HP,vert mount. It was made in WI, so perhaps it is your company! How kewl is this?! What a coinky dink! The water table is at around 18feet right now. It's usage is twofold, irrigation to the front lawn (one toro mini-8,and three 570's), and house supply (aerator charger). Pressure tank (wich I didn't think I would need, but happen to have), is a big boy, 20 or 30 gallons in gerth. The old Sta-Rite horiz 1/2HP lasted a good 10years, and was used when I got it. I think what caused this series of events was my additional demands from the irrigation system,coupled with the fact that this is Florida's dry season. It probably dropped the water table at the well?

POINTER94 · May 17, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Yep, thats who I work for. (Both Sta-Rite and Flotec are made by my company. Sta-Rite is the "pro" channel product and the Flotec is our "retail" product) Please feel free to call at the above listed number and if for some reason get lost in our "modern" phone system simply ask for Doug in the Technical group. Oh, yea, your reason for going larger is fine, and common. When you change your requirements your system frequently has to change as well. I really think you are going to be fine with a shallow well jet pump which will make the installation much easier. Try going to our web site as I will be referring to it during our discussion. www.pumps.com. Look at the model MSE.

POINTER94 · May 17, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

12footer, The pump you bought is a pro-line product sold through retail outlets, this is an outstanding pump. Please bear with me I dont see the retail stuff very often and I am not as fluent with their part numbers and product offerings as I should be. I did a little research and you guys in florida are letting too many people move there and build homes, the water table is dropping every year. Even if it works on a shallow config, you will need a deep well config in the near future as the water table continues to drop. Like everything in Florida, things are different. My guess is you have an aeration system to precipitate out the sulfer. This unit has a couple of floats that tell the well pump when to turn on and off to keep the tank full. From there you have a re-pressurization pump used in conjunction with a bladder tank to run your home and irrigation system. This may be another jet pump or a small hp submersible located in the aeration tank. Your well is probably as deep as it is because the surface water was not of very good quality and they needed to drill deeper to reach better water. http://www.flotecwater.com Please refer to the following link and go to page three. You will see that there is a 2 packer jet performance chart. By using the correct arrangement of jets and venturi nozzles you can get upwards of 12 gpm. The flotec part number of FP4830 is what you will need. This will include your vertical casing adaptor, and your two inch packer style jet, and associated fittings required to finish the job. I would guess that the water level dropped below the 25ft mark and allowed your old pump to continue to run without water moving through, thus boiling the water in the pump and deforming the impeller/diffuser before the thermals in the motor shut it off. Mechanical shaft seal is probably in bad shape as well. The bad news is, in my opinion, you will need to use the 2 packer jet or you will do to your new pump what happened to the old. The good news is that it isnt as tough to install as you would think. And your old pump is repairable. (**But remember that it failed cuz the water dropped and it will continue to do so in the future so it may have some value at a garage sale or e-bay or as a lake pump.) A 2 packer style jet looks a lot like a glorified foot valve and will only add a couple of pounds to the weight of the pipe so if you got it down before it should actually be easier because it will create friction with the well casing (tight tolerance) as it goes down the well. Try slipping an asprin tablet under the check valve to allow water to pass and prevent the prospect of air lock. Please let me know if you have any questions. Doug

12Footer · May 17, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Thanks, Doug. I picked up the kit you described, and will get my wifey to assist me tonite. Well, I wired and fired her up last night. It hummed frozen for a second, then squealed bloody murder, then made a cracking sound, started running smoothly, with a rusty brown mist eminating from the shaft seal area...It grenaded, no chance to pump or take prime.It was immediate. Turns out, that ceramic seal liked the shaft better than it did the seat. I primed it per instructions, and then, put garden hose pressure on the tank before throwing the switch. It probably didn't help the pump any, that it went thru the bottom of the crate at the store. It looked ok, so I just bought it anyhow....Thank God, they allowed me to return it. I'll try again tonight with a new pump. Gotta get to the salt mines...Thanks again, Doug. You're the man!

12Footer · May 20, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Update,as of Friday early morning. Still no water, but I hold out high hopes for this afternoon. I went back and got a 1HP convertable model. I kept the vertical pump, As I still plan to sink a new well in the "slow" season. We simply cannot find a well driller who can give us a firm date/time because they are so busy. And the risks involved with me attempting to pull this old pipe out of the casing ,with only my wife to assist me, frankly scares me to death, not to mention, dropping the new one down without loosing it. But this other pump will only have to draw 18feet to water,and with it mounted at the well, it should prime and stay primed.

BiXLL · May 21, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Pointer, I don't want to steal the thread, so could you possibly e-mail me with suggestion for a replacement submersible pump? bandb16@comcast.net

POINTER94 · May 21, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

12footer, If you require assistance I would be happy to contact one of our dealers, on your behalf, and schedule a timely installation. Just let me know.

BiXLL, I will need a little information from you to size it correctly. I will e-mail you later this morning.

12Footer · May 22, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Doug, I tried the 4332-08 1HP convertable, and it at least, held-prime....Although it is cavitating,as evidenced by the sound,slow build-up of water pressure, and jumpy pressure guage needle. We are keeping an eye on it, to assure it doesn't drop it's prime, until I can change-out the pipes, and install the jet inside the well. Do you think this will be an improvement over the convertable's performance? My wife's cousin (the guy I bought my latest project boat from), will be over around 5pm, to help me remove the 1" suction pipe, and install the 1.25" galv with 4800 jet on the foot of it. We will be going 60feet to the jet,--(the max we can go using 10' sticks and the special turned couplings provided in the jet kit)-- with an additional 4'PVC wellpoint mounted below the jet on about 3feet of PVC. I'll put the 44series vertical pump back inline, and mothball the 4332 convertable for whenever I get around to replacing the house supply pump (for more volume/pressure). I plan on giving you a call later anyhow, but doubt you'll be there there on Saturday----You should be out there on the water fishin anyhow. So should I but....Such is life.

POINTER94 · May 22, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

My fingers are killing me. Please email your phone # to ********@yahoo.com and I'll give you a call on Sunday and try to answer any questions you have while you have some weekend left. We have had over 4.5" of rain in the past couple of days. I'm building an arc.

12Footer · Jun 19, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

Follow-up: This afternoon, I finally have a new well which is delivering gobs of water. The well drillers down here are going nutz! And I found out today, after talking to the owner of All Florida Well Drilling, that it is no longer seasonal contracts from wells drying-up, but new dconstruction. There is presently a major housing boom state-wide. But anyhow, back to my well. They put down a 4" well, and a 2HP submersable pump. I'm broke, but clean. I want thank Pointer94, not only for his expertise on the subjects of wells and pumps, but also for his help lining-up a local contractor to fit me into his schedule, and at a fair price. Thanks, Doug!

POINTER94 · Jun 19, 2004

Re: My well is not well....HELP!

12FOOTER, Make sure that you fill out the 5yr. warranty. If you have not recieved the manual download it from www.pumps.com, On the last page of the owners manual is the form for the 5 year warranty. Get the model for the pump and the motor. I will e-mail you how to get this for free!!! Enjoy a good shower, and I am glad it worked out well (ha ha) for you. I am visiting the future in-laws so give me a day or two. Not to worry our policy gives you a couple of months. Doug

My well is not well....HELP!

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