<< Need help restoring my father's 1986 Four Winns Horizon 190 Cuddy >>

[Chadbud]

Hey guys!

I've finally started to plan the partial restoration of my father's boat he's passed down to me. Before we begin, I'd like to say that this is my first major boat project.. however, I'm a fast learner and commited to this project. I understand that many would say that it may be smarter to just buy a new boat, but this boat has a lot of sentimental value to me and I would like to put the hard work into it to get it back on the water running properly.

That being said, I'd like to start by making a list of the biggest concerns with the boat I have before asking how to repair them:

1) The floor has a few soft spots, especially around the fuel container (Underneath the center section of floor). However, all the corners and sides of the floor are very sturdy/hard. Engine supports seem hard/sturdy when doing a "knock" test.. and the Transom also shows no signs (as far as I know) of soft spots or rot.

2) The engine is a 4.3L V6 Mercruiser (1986) model with a 4bbl carb. It was rebuilt in 1988 with all new race quality bearing, pistons, rings, rods. However, after firing the engine up with new plugs, fuel line, and fresh oil lubricated into the cylinders. It started up with a very loud metal knocking noise that increases with RPM. After discovering this I shut the engine down and my best guess is that it has a bad rod/bearing in one of the cylinders. My plan for this is to have the engine totally rebuilt or repower it completely (They seem to be about the same price to do either). Supposedly I can get a refurbished low hour engine online for about 3000. My local machine shop says they can do a full rebuild for about 2500. I plan on attempting to pull and crate the engine myself.

3) The trim pump isn't working, tried replacing the solenoids but it still won't work from the control switch.. HOWEVER I think the wiring is rusted out connecting the trim pump to the control, so I think it may still work but the wiring is just faulty. (Still not sure how to "Jump" it to truly test if the motor on it works.

4) The outdrive seems to be in complete working order.. however, the bellows do need replaced and it also needs new sacrifice metal pieces (the little anodes). That is all the repairs that It appears to need (besides maybe an impeller but thats easy)

5) Power steering and electric start are in what appears to be good working order. (Not an issue but worth mentioning for consistency purposes).

6) I HAVE NOT done a "core test" on the stringers to see if they're rotten. I plan on doing that soon.. I understand you do this just by drilling into the stringers with a small bit size and seeing how the shavings come out.

7) Preferrably, I would like to replace the floor and all the foam under the floor but not the stringers.. but this obviously depends heavily on if the stringers are rotten. I know many say "if the floor has soft spots then the stringers are probably bad too" but I have also been told that this is not always the case. I guess my best bet is to pull the deck/floor out and test the stringers myself.




So that is all the issues that I need to focus on repairing for this restore. My goal is to get this boat in proper working order for at least 5-6 years.

Here is how I'm going to tackle the project first along with questions I have about each step:

1. Replace impeller and remove outdrive completely (store in garage until engine is repaired/replaced)

2. Remove engine and crate it. (I am unaware of how to do this but as far as I understand all you need to do is remove linkages to throttle and steering and then remove engine mount bolts, right?)

3. Remove Seats inside boat, (assuming this is a self-explanatory job.. however there does seem to be wood underneath the seats attaching them to the deck).

4. Tear up carpet (Self explanatory)

5. BIG ONE: Begin removing deck/floor of boat. This boat is a cuddy, so my biggest question here is do I need to worry about removing anything up in there? Do the stringers of the boat go up into the cuddy? Also, Removing the deck is mostly cutting it out with a saw-zaw, angle grinder, circular saw.. am I right? I can't find any tutorials or guides that explain from start to finish about how to remove JUST the floor/deck of the boat. I'm also thinking that I should leave a "Lip" of wood at the edges of the floor attached to the boat so I have somewhere to measure/start from when laying down the new deck, right?

Once I get the deck/floor out I plan on digging out all the foam and then once it's all clean I'm going to inspect the stringers and see what I'm working with and if they'll need replaced. I know it's likely that the stringers will have some areas that are beginning to rot.. but I also know that there is a slight chance that they will be fine as well! I'm hoping they're okay and that I can just reinforce them with more wood and fiberglass and putting a brand new deck down. If they do need replaced, I havea carpenter/mechanic friend I plan on tackling that giant project with.


So this is where I'm at so far guys! I want to thank anyone in advance who takes the time to read through my questions and answer each (preferrably in number format) that they are able! Any written tutorials or videos that you guys have on removing the DECK/FLOOR of the boat would be amazing. That is the only job that I am definitely nervous about.


Lastly, I know this is a big undertaking so I don't need to be told so. I'm simply looking for tips and pointers on how to begin this job and any tricks of the trade that will make it easier on me. I grew up in this boat.. so I want to restore it. It will make my dad so happy to see it restored and it will be amazing to start my family with the same boat I had as a kid.

Thank you guys so much for your help!

 

[chevymaher]

Welcome. Just kinda get your mind used to the fact it all is coming out to the bare hull. It is easier that way. Replace it all and get it over with. My floor was solid all of it. Stringers and transom were wasted.

Frisco boater says there are stages of boat ownership. Denial acceptance and rebuilding. Denial is it can't be that bad on mine. Then you accept the work ahead. Then you just got to do it.

I am fairly new here. But I have never seen a boat our boats age I have a 87. So far that just didn't need all wood replaced. It is normal maintenance.

Like I said it is just easier to expect the worst deal with it and go with it. It is worth it. Just alot of work.

 

[savetexomabeaches]

Trim pump --- Blue wire raises up to the sky (Blue - color of sky) -- Green wire lowers to ground (Green -- color of grass) --- Apply a 12volt jumper directly to one of those wires on the pump to bypass all the switches to see if it goes up/down.

 

[savetexomabeaches]

Drive removal --- With the drive up, disconnect the speedo hose, its located under the exhaust bellows. Lower drive into operating position, shift into forward gear, take the two plastic caps off the trim cylinders at the end, remove the retaining rings (or nuts) and slide the pin out -- please don't beat on it with a metal hammer. Use a rubber mallet or wood. Remove the 5/8 nuts (6 of them) holding in onto the bell housing. Slide drive off --- Since you're going to store it, you may want to get some 2x4s and make a little stand for it.

 

[savetexomabeaches]

Engine removal -- Remove battery cable from starter, unplug harness, remove throttle/shift cables, remove power steering hoses, remove fuel line, loosen exhaust boots, remove ground wires, loosen and remove the two mount bolts behind the engine, remove the two engine mount bolts on the sides of the engine. I think that's it.. Raise it up slowly, you always forget a wire or a hose or something.. Remove from boat.. --- Take pics and label wires/hoses with masking tape.

 

[savetexomabeaches]

Just saw your engine, man that thing is dirty dirty... covered in oil?

 

[Scott Danforth]

1) The floor has a few soft spots, especially around the fuel container (Underneath the center section of floor). However, all the corners and sides of the floor are very sturdy/hard. Engine supports seem hard/sturdy when doing a "knock" test.. and the Transom also shows no signs (as far as I know) of soft spots or rot.



6) I HAVE NOT done a "core test" on the stringers to see if they're rotten. I plan on doing that soon.. I understand you do this just by drilling into the stringers with a small bit size and seeing how the shavings come out.

7) Preferrably, I would like to replace the floor and all the foam under the floor but not the stringers.. but this obviously depends heavily on if the stringers are rotten. I know many say "if the floor has soft spots then the stringers are probably bad too" but I have also been told that this is not always the case. I guess my best bet is to pull the deck/floor out and test the stringers myself.

5. BIG ONE: Begin removing deck/floor of boat. This boat is a cuddy, so my biggest question here is do I need to worry about removing anything up in there? Do the stringers of the boat go up into the cuddy? Also, Removing the deck is mostly cutting it out with a saw-zaw, angle grinder, circular saw.. am I right? I can't find any tutorials or guides that explain from start to finish about how to remove JUST the floor/deck of the boat. I'm also thinking that I should leave a "Lip" of wood at the edges of the floor attached to the boat so I have somewhere to measure/start from when laying down the new deck, right?

Once I get the deck/floor out I plan on digging out all the foam and then once it's all clean I'm going to inspect the stringers and see what I'm working with and if they'll need replaced. I know it's likely that the stringers will have some areas that are beginning to rot.. but I also know that there is a slight chance that they will be fine as well! I'm hoping they're okay and that I can just reinforce them with more wood and fiberglass and putting a brand new deck down. If they do need replaced, I havea carpenter/mechanic friend I plan on tackling that giant project with.

I will save you a bit of time.

if the floor is soft, 99% chance the stringers have long since rotted, especially on a cuddy as the floor is so much higher in there than in a bow rider. and yes, the stringers go from the transom to the bow. they are basically the framework structure for the hull.

water gets in where its not supposed to.......stringers rot, then the transom, then the bulkheads and then the floor.

fire up the drill and start taking core samples. you may be the lucky 1%, however dont count on it. 1/4" drill bit, some tape 3/4" from the end

knocking on it doesnt mean squat unless everthing under what your knocking on had turned to mush, then carpenter ants removed the rotting wood.

drill into the transom down low, about 2" above the hull. make a series of test drills about 6" apart
drill the motor mounts, stringers, and bulkheads

if the shavings come out light colored, dry and smell like freshly cut wood, then plug holes and consider yourself the 1%. however if your shavings come out dark, wet and smell like moldy, rotting leaves.....proceed below

pull the motor
remove all the interior - even down below

remove the floor
measure and sketch the bulkhead/stringer location
remove the fuel tank
remove the wet foam/rotten stringers/rotten bulkheads/rotten transom

I would consider pulling the windshield, removing the rub rail, and then removing the cap

 

[tpenfield]

Subscribing in . . .

The stringers will extend up into the cuddy cabin . . . the 'height' of the stringers may vary throughout their length.

There are a few instances where people have cut through the hull of their boat while trying to remove the floor. The common tool for cutting into the floor is a circular saw. Be sure to set the depth to no more than the thickness of the floor, which should be 1/2" - 3/4".

As stated, often when the floor has soft spots, the foam beneath has retained some water and the stringers, bulkhead and transom may have water in them as well. So, don't be afraid to cut out the stringers if you find this to be the case.

If you get to the point of tearing out the structure, make sure to remove as many pieces intact as you can, take lots of measurements and pictures.

 

[kcassells]

Welcome a board and just like Scott has said. My boat was solid as a rock....until I started to work on it. Mush, mud and worms. Glass was all that was holding it together. Even that was sub-par.

 

[Woodonglass]

I'm gunna tag along too! One more thing what kind of trailer is she on? When you start removing the foam and stringers she'll need good support

 

[Slager]

I'll follow along. Looking forward to seeing some pictures. You've come to the right place for guidance through the whole project. If you do the restore right, you should get a good 15-30 years or more out of it, especially if you take good care of it.

 

[Baylinerchuck]

I'll join in too. Just finished up my second project, a 20' Chap bow rider so perhaps I can help some. Welcome to the rotten boat party.

 

[Chadbud]

Wow thank you guys for coming together to support me on this project!! I saw a lot of you in other amazing rebuild threads so I'm really happy that you're all here to help me through this. I know a lot of you are incredibly knowledgeable so I'm sure there's nothing I'll run into that I can't check with you guys!

Okay so my first plan is to build an outdrive stand out of 2x4s. I've seen pictures of some online and it seems simple enough.

I've tried jumping the trim pump with no luck, this means the outdrive is stuck in trailer position.. not an issue though, I'll just knock the pin out and go about removing it and putting it on the stand.

After the drive is out and on a stand my next plan is to begin preparing the interior for removal of the deck. This part is where I get nervous.

The seats look like they're on top of wood platforms (since they fold down to a bench). They look a lot like the old 86 bayliner Capri seats actually! (Assuming google images are showing me the right boat.

So does that mean that the seats are attached to a wooden box that is bolted to the floor? With a quick glance I can't find the nails or bolts attaching it.. maybe they're under the carpeting. Either way, I gotta remove the seats before ripping out the carpet.

Also another question, I saw most of your rebuild thread chevymaher and I was wondering.. is the cuddy it's own housing? Like is it separated from the stringers and deck underneath? So once I get down to removing the stringers I'll have to just crawl underneath the cuddy and not actually remove any of the cuddy itself right?


PS: I'll be posting a lot of pics sometime tomorrow or Saturday! I want to show you guys in depth of what I'm working with and also the boat that I've fallen in love with. I look at her every single day in my driveway and tell myself: "I will get you back in the water stronger than ever.. I promise"

Thanks!

 

[Scott Danforth]

screws should be from inside box downward. you may have to lift up on the seat to get to the screw heads

 

[Chadbud]

screws should be from inside box downward. you may have to lift up on the seat to get to the screw heads

I see now where they're bolted in. Thank you for that! Hopefully that's all it takes to get these seats up and out of the boat.

I have another question for you guys regarding the engine and also the cuddy..

First the engine: my father says that the engine is "worth" rebuilding. Since it is likely a bad bearing or rod.. he believes there is little damage done to the crankshaft (because it's been ran for less than a minute since the problem first occurred) and that either way, the engine will come back from rebuild in a greater condition than a refurbished or used "drop in" engine from online would. Also, the prices I've been searching seem to suggest the price would be about the same to get a used engine of the same type or to rebuild the current one.. (not to mention the current engine has a better carb on it and also various other external parts that of are higher quality). (Removal and reinstalling of the engine will be done by myself with he help of my buddies CAT backhoe.)

Second question: Is the cuddy a separate compartment from the stringers? So in the very likely circumstance that I have to replace the stringers, I will not have to mess with the cuddy compartment much during that process right? The cuddy sits above the stringers that run to the bow?

Lastly, if the transom turns out to have rot near the bottom.. I may just have to do a transom patch job similar to Friscoboaters transom replacement? I don't actually remove the entirety of the transom.. just the wood down to where it connects to the fiberglass shell that encompasses the boat.. right?.


Thanks again guys, couldn't tackle this job without you!! I plan on updating with pictures later today! Cheers!

 

[tpenfield]

The stringers *should* extend up into the cuddy cabin. Often the stringers are fine that far forward. So you could cut the stringers at a point where they are good and replace just the rear/mid sections that tend to be bad.

 

[Scott Danforth]

regarding the engine. boat motors are essentially truck motors with marine bits on them. if you want to rebuild it, rebuild it. cost of machine work is nearly the same for a 4 banger, a V6 or a V8. cost of components about the same. usually if you hear banging, the rod and the crank need attention as the damage is done well before you hear anything

here is some history on the 4.3 http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi...history-of-the-4-3-liter-with-casting-numbers

make sure you have an alignment bar

no need for a cat back hoe, as removing the trailer tires should lower the boat enough to use a standard engine hoist, however that is up to you.

regarding the stringers, depends. you wont know until you start cutting the floor out. many times two of the major stringers run from bow to stern. bulkheads are placed over the stringers. sometimes there is a transition.

I myself would uncap it. being only 19' long the cap is not that large, that would give you some room to work. however that is me. a few ratchet straps and access to ceiling rafters and you would be good to go.

most likely your transom will be rotten. I would replace it as a whole. the transom is what the boat motor pushes against and is a major structural member along with the stringers. Uncapping would help here as well.

 

[savetexomabeaches]

(Removal and reinstalling of the engine will be done by myself with he help of my buddies CAT backhoe.)

I hope you mean.. "I have a chain hoist Im going to hook to my buddy's backhoe and slowly wench the engine out" and not "My buddy has a backhoe, and we're going to hook a chain to the engine and raise it up with the backhoe"

I have seen backhoes that can pick up dimes off the sidewalk, and I have seen backhoes that slam a foot or so in the direction they want to move and jerk back and forth, slamming into stuff.. --- 99% of the time you forget a wire, or a hose, or something vital when pulling an engine.. slow is best

 

[Slager]

I too recommend pulling the cap. You can use that cat backhoe and a chain hoist to to separate the halves right after pulling the engine.

 

[Scott Danforth]

--- 99% of the time you forget a wire, or a hose, or something vital when pulling an engine.. slow is best

yep, the hydraulic engine hoist is designed to test the tensile strength of the wires you forgot...