New here pulling out my hair...

[Ncherry84]

Hey everyone, long time reader, first time poster. Great information here and has been very helpful and always looking around....but now I'm at my wits end....and time for a first post.

I picked up a 92 SeaRay 200BR (0D836623) with a 4.3LX Thunderbolt IV for next to nothing. Improperly winterized and the block cracked. Easy project for me as I wrench for a hobby.

Here we go. Got the boat home, ordered a reman long block. Motor showed up and set #1 at TDC, had a cracked crank chain timing gear and so had to replace that and reinstalled the timing chain. Pulled the motor, rebuilt the 4bbl weber carb, and transferred parts over and put the motor in. Hooked up all the wiring (correctly). Got the oil pump primed up and lined up for the distributor to be at #1 at TDC. Reinstalled the distributor with pickup facing the rear pointing directly at #1 post for the cap. Installed the new rotor and cap, plugs (gapped at .040), plug wires and coil. Went to test crank, starter was locked up (it was an automotive starter any how...ugh) so ordered a new marine starter and put it in. Cranked over, finished hooking up the fuel system and ran thru final checks.

Ran to the local pump n munch with 2 5 gallon fuel cans and filled them with no ethanol premium and dumped it in the tank. Motor cranked over perfectly, wouldn't fire at first. Took a lil bit for the electric pump the refill the bowls I'm sure.

So where I'm at now is I can't get the motor to start. Everything is timed how it should be by the seloc book. Getting spark and fuel because you can see exhaust coming from the prop, and it's backfiring thru the carb. Turned the distributor every which way a little bit and a lot of bit, either fired worse or no change. Checked my plug wires at least 15 times now, they're correct. Pulled the distributor and reset the engine to TDC #1 by pulling the plug and waiting for the compression stroke. Reset distributor and reinstalled the cap and wires. Hit the key and same thing. Some exhaust out the back, and a few backfires thru the carb. Triple checked all the wires again, everything going where it belongs, turned the distributor every which way a lot and a little....but only makes it worse or same result.

Ran thru the ignition system check, and was getting spark from the coil when grounding out the white and green wires, so replaced the pickup in the distributor. Tried to start...SAME THING except this time it backfired so hard from the prop that it was basically an uncle buck backfire and I'm waiting for the cops to show up on a shots fired call.

What am I doing wrong here? All that's left to replace is the TB IV module which is stupidly overpriced, and I feel that it's probably not the issue. I really feel like I've done everything right and have been stupidly thorough with this whole project.

I honestly dont know what to do anymore. It feels like the engine is almost 180 off from the distributor, but it's not. I'm at a loss. Help?

 

[Bondo]

Getting spark and fuel because you can see exhaust coming from the prop, and it's backfiring thru the carb.

Ayuh,...... Welcome Aboard,..... Any chance ya dropped the distributor in, 180* out of time,..??

Sure sounds like it,.....

 

[Ncherry84]

I thought so at first, so I had pulled it and reset the engine to #1 TDC and reset the distributor on the cam. Rotor pointing dead on right at the #1 position on the cap ready to fire #6 next.

 

[Rick Stephens]

How did you determine that you were on #1 compression cycle? There are a number of ways to do that, just want to know which way you used to make sure.

As easy as a Weber is to pull the top off of, do that just once more to make sure you weren't pumping crap in from the lines.

 

[Scott06]

Did you check rocker arms are set correctly? Check compression if low re set rocker arm clearance

 

[Ncherry84]

How did you determine that you were on #1 compression cycle? There are a number of ways to do that, just want to know which way you used to make sure.

As easy as a Weber is to pull the top off of, do that just once more to make sure you weren't pumping crap in from the lines.

When I first set TDC before installing the motor I had the valve covers off, and no timing cover on. So the cam dot at 6 o'clock and crank dot at 12 and valve's were closed. After installing the motor I pulled the number one plug, and rolled the motor over by hand with my thumb over the plug hole until the compression starting leaking past my thumb, then lined up the timing mark on the crank at 0 TDC.

 

[Ncherry84]

Did you check rocker arms are set correctly? Check compression if low re set rocker arm clearance

Yes. It's a reman motor...but I always check things like rocker clearance and what not before install. I've been burned before.

 

[Scott06]

Did you check rocker arms are set correctly? Check compression if low re set rocker arm clearance. It's either that or you have mis identified #1 or compression stroke vs exhaust stroke/ firing order. Last time I had a backfire like that distributor was out 180.

 

[Ncherry84]

Did you check rocker arms are set correctly? Check compression if low re set rocker arm clearance. It's either that or you have mis identified #1 or compression stroke vs exhaust stroke/ firing order. Last time I had a backfire like that distributor was out 180.

I've installed them 180 off before, and made extra sure to not do that this time lol. When I was younger it just about used to be my trademark almost. #1 if looking at the front of the motor is the front cylinder on the right side. I'll run a compression test shortly here and well see what I come up with.

Pulled the top of the carb off...bowls have fuel in them...slight amount of sediment/crap in the bottom part of the bowl but everything looks good in there. I'll discard the fuel and clean the bowls a poke the jets again quick.

I cant remember exactly...but initial settings on a weber are two turns out from closed, correct?

 

[Ncherry84]

Ran the compression test and 130-135 across all 6.

1 - 130
3 - 135
5 - 135
2 - 130
4 - 135
6 - 135

 

[QBhoy]

Hi

id have bypassed the fuel tank to make certain that’s not affecting things here.

Run fresh fuel straight from the fuel can if you need to. Just in case.

 

[Ncherry84]

Hi

id have bypassed the fuel tank to make certain that’s not affecting things here.

Run fresh fuel straight from the fuel can if you need to. Just in case.

I'll bring a gas can with me to work in the morning and get another 5 gallons of non ethanol premium and try that. I guess pull the hose off the tank and stick it in the can?

There was some fuel in the tank from last year. No idea how much but did put 10 fresh gallons in with some additive on top of it. The fuel in the carb bowls was not the greatest tho. I dont really have a good safe way of pumping this tank down tho.

 

[achris]

Big bang out the prop and through the carb does indicate that fuel is there. No fuel, no bang. It's also VERY indicative of the firing order being out. Either the distributor is 180 out, or you've read the rotation of the dissy the wrong way and you have the reverse order... The only other possibility is the firing order of the cam doesn't match 1-6-5-4-3-2....

Chris........

 

[Ncherry84]

Big bang out the prop and through the carb does indicate that fuel is there. No fuel, no bang. It's also VERY indicative of the firing order being out. Either the distributor is 180 out, or you've read the rotation of the dissy the wrong way and you have the reverse order... The only other possibility is the firing order of the cam doesn't match 1-6-5-4-3-2....

Chris........

That's the picture my book has, the only difference is my number 1 post on the distributor cap has the rotor pointing at the number 1 cylinder. Can't put the cap on wrong because it has an alignment tab on it that fits a gap in the housing, the firing order and wires are correct on the cap and wires are going to the correct cylinder. I guess I'm gonna have to get back to TDC and pull the cap and see where my rotor lands. If it lands at 4 or 3 then I'm 180 off and a complete moron doing it 3 times to figure it out lol....or I end up at one and something else is messed up.

How would I get a cam that has the incorrect firing order?

 

[achris]

It really doesn't matter where the distributor cap posts point. As long as at #1 firing TDC, the post the rotor is pointing at has the lead that goes to #1 spark plug on it.....

I have never seen a V6 cam with a different firing order, but that doesn't mean they don't exist... Just look at the Merc 888/ford 302. It uses a cam from a 351, and even that's a different one to the 'automotive'... (the wrong firing order cam is a very long shot. I'd pretty much ignore it for the moment)

Chris......

 

[Ncherry84]

I'll jump out and head over to the tool box to grab a socket and wrench it bar the motor over and get back to 1 TDC and see where I'm at. I know the motor doesn't care what post has what wire on it as long as the wires are going to the right cylinders....since this cap is marked out for standard and reverse rotation (I went with standard) the wires are at least correct and that's just where the number one post is....point to the number one cylinder.

 

[achris]

I have just thought of another possibility. You changed the timing gear. Could the cam timing be out?

 

[Ncherry84]

I have just thought of another possibility. You changed the timing gear. Could the cam timing be out?

I thought of that as well....but there's only one way to put it on if you use the timing dots.

I'm assuming this is an interference motor, so if I put it on during any other position than TDC then the valves would have smacked the pistons and I'd really be up a creek and have no compression. Right?

 

[Ncherry84]

Well, I figured it out. I partially feel like an idiot, and I partially don't. Tough to say....

So I went in and set #1 TDC, felt the compression release by my thumb covering the #1 hole as I've done what feels like a million times now....Pulled the cap after I KNOW for FACT I hadn't set it 180 off....low and behold, the rotor is like 270 degrees off...not even close. I pulled the rotor off, went to reset the distributor to find that it was already set to #1 wire.

WTF right? So I put the rotor back on and put the cap back on and got ready for a test fire. Hit the key, came to life (a rough awakening to say the least) for a brief moment, popped and died. Reset #1 TDC AGAIN and pulled the cap.....now it was facing about 90-100 degrees off from the #1 wire. Reset it AGAIN.... this time leaving the cap off. Hit the starter and cranked it a few times, let off, found #1 TDC again, and the rotor was off again....this time maybe half as bad as the last.

So I barred the motor over by hand to see if maybe I had bad teeth on the distributor drive on the cam. Tight all the way around like a new motor. I was heading back to TDC on 1 and had lost my balance and I leaned down and missed putting all my weight on the rotor and grazed it on the way to the riser to catch myself and the rotor spun. WTH?

Pulled the rotor off, looked at the shaft and saw the slot...put the rotor on and gave it a twist. It spun on the shaft. Looked up inside the rotor and the tab that locks into the shaft of the distributor was not there. At all. Not broke off, partially there, filed or tampered out....just never filled the mold. Ran to the marine shop and showed it to them and exchanged it for a new one....and it spits right off smooth as can be....

I can't believe I missed this! To be fair, how often does something like this happen to a guy anyhow?

I thank you all for the input and ideas everyone!

 

[achris]

...I can't believe I missed this! To be fair, how often does something like this happen to a guy anyhow?...

Not something many people would have looked to check... Nice catch...