Oil Analysis Poor Sample

[otteray]

At least I hope it is a poor sample due to my procedure!
My '03 4.3 oil analysis came back with very high iron content; 117, with the universal average being 25. Some of the others were somewhat elevated, too; but the iron stood out the most.
Could this be because the suction hose was all the way onto the oil pan, capturing the sludge, and not retracted an inch or so above it avoiding that concentrated goo? I just read instructions recommending that procedure.

 

[otteray]

At least I hope it is a poor sample due to my procedure!
My '03 4.3 oil analysis came back with very high iron content; 117, with the universal average being 25. Some of the others were somewhat elevated, too; but the iron stood out the most.
Could this be because the suction hose was all the way onto the oil pan, capturing the sludge, and not retracted an inch or so above it avoiding that concentrated goo? I just read instructions recommending that procedure.

I may try a moly additive to flush and hopefully reduce the rusting at the next oil change.

 

[Lou C]

Usually there will be other clues as to why your iron content is high. I had this when my head gaskets were starting to leak and salt water was getting into the oil. Since I fixed it back in 2017 the level of iron has gone down, not as far as is optimal but still a lot better than it was.
Causes can be water in the oil, antifreeze in the oil, anything that reduces the ability of the oil to lubricate. Started at 128, repairs were done in 2017, the next analysis was done in '21, it wa 86 then, and last one done last year, was at 56. Still higher than it should be but getting better. During the repairs the cylinder heads were replaced, but the short block and rotating assembly is all original, 1988, so mine is much older than yours.

 

[Donald0039]

I assume you are using new tubing for each sample? You need to. You can also cut the tubing at an angle to try and avoid sludge. And you can pump maybe 1/4 of the sample container, dump it, wipe it clean and fill the sample container. Or get two sample containers.

Look at NAPA sampling for $16 or $17. It includes TBN. Not a fan of Blackstone.

 

[otteray]

I rechecked the riser bolts tightness and a few were just below the minimum recommended torque. I had replaced the manifolds and risers last year and never rechecked the bolts, as apparently required. Tightened those up.
New tubing for the extractor is on my list now.
Why the Blackstone dislike?

 

[Donald0039]

You can get the UOA done with a NAPA sample kit for $17. Includes TBN which is good to know. Blackstone is what $30?

Blackstone seems to also have a habit of trying to push car owners to extend the OCi. If you are going to push OCI then TBN is mandatory.

And there some of the measurements, where Blackstone uses a less accurate method than some of the other companies that do UOA.

There are not that many companies that do UOA. They offer private label services which is what NAPA is and also Amsoil and many others.

 

[Lou C]

I rechecked the riser bolts tightness and a few were just below the minimum recommended torque. I had replaced the manifolds and risers last year and never rechecked the bolts, as apparently required. Tightened those up.
New tubing for the extractor is on my list now.
Why the Blackstone dislike?

Might be a good idea to pull your spark plugs and check for water intrusion; what else was out of range in your sample? Alu? Cu? Pb? Water? Etc

 

[otteray]

Might be a good idea to pull your spark plugs and check for water intrusion; what else was out of range in your sample? Alu? Cu? Pb? Water? Etc

This is the report. I'm hoping it is because I sucked up from the bottom of the oil pan. Yes, a compression check is probably in the near future. It had sat in the driveway here on the Monterey Bay all the mild winter, and I had to spray a carb fuel injection cleaner to get 'er going before taking it out to sea the next day.
When I ran it out for halibut fishing last week it ran great at WOT, trolling and cruising speeds. At first, it surged several times at full throttle leaving the harbor; but then ran great for the rest of the day.
Started it again today after sitting two weeks and it ran fine at first turn of ignition key.

 

[Lou C]

You boat in salt water?
I see both sodium and fuel dilution, the sodium is likely from salt water intrusion. Your motor oil is also not in grade, it is below the level it should be in terms of viscosity. This is likely due to the fuel dilution. Is this a carbed engine, throttle body or EFI? If carbed make sure that the choke opens as it should and the fuel mix is not too rich.
Sodium could be getting in via the exhaust, or the beginnings of a head gasket leak. Are the spark plug electrodes a bit rusty? I would try to find the source of the sodium and the fuel dilution. If dealt with the right way the wear numbers can improve over time.
You can check for a head gasket leak by temporarily replacing the hoses that go from the thermostat housing to the exhaust manifolds with clear hose. Put the boat in the water, run it up on plane, get it good and warmed up and then bring it back to idle. Do you see bubbles in the cooling water going to the manifolds? If so this could be a sign that combustion gas is getting into the cooling water and that's a sign of a leaking head gasket.
Been there, done that and fixed it with a top end overhaul, remanufactured cylinder heads, new head gaskets, marine head & intake gaskets. At the same time I converted over to the later style center riser exhaust system same as on the Volvo. The top end job was about $800 in parts, the new exhaust system including VP exhaust pipes & hoses needed for the conversion, about $1200. So $2000 parts cost the rest was my labor.

 

[flashback]

I see this as BS. It's like the routine blood test I get. If the score is up or down from "normal I'm screwed...

Marketing is always for the benefit of the folks that market the test...

 

[Scott Danforth]

Agree with @Lou C . Look for salt water and fuel

How old are the manifolds and risers?

 

[Donald0039]

I see this as BS. It's like the routine blood test I get. If the score is up or down from "normal I'm screwed...

Marketing is always for the benefit of the folks that market the test...

Oil analysis has its uses. In most cases people use it to look for trends. But can also be used to look for coolant or water or fuel in the oil.

In an engine with a 5 QT oil sump the oil analysis is around the same cost of a DIY oil change. Not a whole lot of savings trying to figure out when to change your oil.

But my diesel pickup has a 14 QT oil sump and a bypass oil filter into addition to the full flow oil filter. Doing a couple of UOAs allowed me to see when the oil is contaminated enough to warrant an oil change. From then on I can follow what was learned from the initial couple of UOAs and then only do an occasional UOA. I can safely go 20K miles on synthetic diesel motor oil and the UOAs prove it.

Big industrial use oil analysis routinely to determine when to change the oil.

 

[flashback]

In a commercial environment I can see the need . I as probably most folks change oil long before it's needed. Thank you for the insight..

 

[Lou C]

If you’re getting water in the oil or antifreeze if your engine has closed cooling you definitely want to know that, if you’re going to keep the vehicle or boat. Those things can be corrected but if they aren’t eventually engine damage will be very significant. Water in the oil isn’t good for cylinders/pistons but it’s very bad for bearings so is antifreeze.

 

[otteray]

Raw water cooled; mostly in the ocean.
I installed new manifolds/ risers last year. Just retightened the loose bolts (a few were below spec torque). Riser temperatures have been great. Replaced them last year, as they were clogged and overheating.
Carbed engine. Starts right up.
Plugs looked great last year. will check again.
I'll do the clear hose check. A commercial hose store is around the corner, so I can get some good ones there to use temporarily.
Could idling or slow trolling for hours cause water intrusion? I saw a link to an article, but can't find it now.
Hopefully, i won't have to go out of retirement chasing this down with $$$, lol.

 

[Lou C]

Well here’s the thing. There are several possible ways that water in this case can get into the motor oil.
Exhaust—this can happen if old exhaust components are left in service too long. I’m also boat in only salt water & replace the exhaust every 5-7 years. I have owned this boat 20 years and the exhaust has been replaced 3 times. The first 2 I used the OE OMC one piece V6 manifolds (2004 & 2011) and the last (2017) I converted to the later style same as what you have on the Volvo. The weak point with those systems is the joint between the manifold & elbow. If you see rust trails on the outside there’s a good chance it’s leaking on the inside.
The other way with exhaust is vis exhaust reversion; this happens due to vacuum that develops in the exhaust and can suck water back in the engine under certain circumstances. Volvo added one way check valves to the elbows to prevent this. It was a bigger issue in Vortec engines (1996 and up) due to more aggressive camshaft design. The other way water can get in is if the elbows are too low Vs the static water line of the boat. Volvo sold taller elbows to deal with that. The tops of the elbows should be at least 13” above the static water line of the boat.
Idling or slow trolling can cause water to build up in the exhaust due to condensation; which is a by product of burning hydrocarbon fuels. Just like the water you see coming out of the exhaust in a cold start or in cold weather. Volvo & OMC used cold manifold designs where all the cooling water flows thru the manifolds all the time & out the elbows. In these systems the manifolds & elbows run very cool at idle (90-100*) & the temp above which the condensation gets burned off is about 120-130. So yes I’d line a lot you can get condensation. Mine run cool like that and even after coming off plane are only at 125-135. Merc tried to correct this with the warm manifold system where the elbows always get cooling water but the manifolds don’t till the thermostat opens. On these the manifolds run much hotter close to engine temp. With the OMC/Volvo design not much you can do to change this other than making sure the engine doesn’t run too cool; normal is 160-175 or so. And avoid extensive idling. If you do have to idle then run the boat up in plane to burn off condensation at the end of your trip.

The other way water can get in related to long term use of raw water cooled engines in salt water. Eventually (here after 15-20 seasons worth) salt water use deteriorates the cyl head cooling passages to the point where the head gaskets don’t seal 100% any more. They can also rust through behind the valve seats & let water in this can actually cause a catastrophic hydro lock. From what I learned if you run a raw water cooled engine in salt (and it’s an I/O which is basically a car/truck engine designed to have antifreeze in it, not salt water) there will come a time when the heads need to be replaced. The blocks rarely if ever rust through.
This I learned because I had an overheat in 2013, the engine ran fine but sodium was showing up in the oil and after 2 more seasons I had water in 2 cyls. Saw water in the oil too. Took it apart & took the heads to a machine shop. They found cracks in the exhaust valve seat area (overheat) but also said the erosion of the cooling passages would not allow the heads to seal right with a new head gasket even if repaired.
So that’s what I did. And I learned if you have a raw water cooled engine in salt after 15-20 years figure on replacing the heads if the bottom end is still good. BTW this happens to outboards too.
If you get to the point where you have to replace the engine I’d add closed cooling for sure. Eliminating this issue of cyl head deterioration….

 

[Lou C]

Almost forgot
There’s another place water can get in with salt boats & this one is hidden unless you know where to look…the intake manifold…on Chevy V6s & V8s there is a water passage at the front of the manifold that connects to the front of each cyl head to allow hot water to escape. These can rot out right under where the thermostat fits & will put water right in the cam valley directly into the oil. So if you get water in the oil but none in the cylinders; that’s a possible cause. Replacing the intake is a lot easier than replacing the heads. I am still running my original but picked up a nice fresh water spare just in case….

 

[otteray]

Almost forgot
There’s another place water can get in with salt boats & this one is hidden unless you know where to look…the intake manifold…on Chevy V6s & V8s there is a water passage at the front of the manifold that connects to the front of each cyl head to allow hot water to escape. These can rot out right under where the thermostat fits & will put water right in the cam valley directly into the oil. So if you get water in the oil but none in the cylinders; that’s a possible cause. Replacing the intake is a lot easier than replacing the heads. I am still running my original but picked up a nice fresh water spare just in case….

Thanks; a lot to digest!
No rust trails, high risers, anti-syphon check valves are connected, Runs at 170 F; does cool to around 100 during trolling at 1.5 mph. I probably troll the incoming tides for about 4 hours on average, then a 5 minute run back to the harbor at about 15-20 MPH max, heading into 2 to 3 foot seas and wind waves while going out around the reefs; making an uncomfortable ride if much faster.
Can the clear water hoses bubble test be done off my home garden hose to the engine raw water connection adapter, and bringing the RPMs up to high idle?
I'm still curious if my poor suction method for the sample has anything to do with the high contaminants numbers.

 

[Lou C]

Clear water hose test is best done in the water, because with the muffs water can be mixed with air which will throw off your test results.
Before you changed your old exhaust, were there rust trails? If so, it is possible that it could be left over from then, if you were getting a bit of salt water in with the old exhaust. Sampling from the bottom of the dipstick tube, or the oil filter, I have done it both ways and not much difference, and Blackstone says that on their website. So I do think your high iron, Alu and copper are something you want to address, depending on how long you want to keep the boat, if you want to try to keep this engine going, or replace it with a reman (no new 4.3s anymore wish I could still get one when the time comes). These engines are simple, tough and can take a beating, and be brought back with inexpensive parts.
If you find a rotted intake, that can be done for a few hundred, and an afternoon of work. If you find bubbles in the cooling water, then you got the big job to do, honestly it isn't that bad, it took me a while because I had to learn a few new skills along the way. You have to find a way to keep everything organized, labelled and clean clean clean.
The only way I can think of to reduce the chance of condensation in the exhaust with all the trolling you do, is to look into converting to a Mercruiser warm manifolds system but even then, many unknowns and extra cost, seeing as how you just replaced with Volvo. I don't do a lot of trolling but I do some, and it hasn't been a problem for me.
If you wind up finding leaky head gaskets, well I can offer advice on how to proceed.
I went from this:
to this:

and:

with new OMC/Volvo style center riser exhaust, I used Barr aftermarket manifolds and elbows and VP alu 90* exhaust pipes and rubber hoses...

It all fit like factory on my old OMC Y pipe. Which makes sense because OMC designed this exhaust before the joint venture with Volvo, and Volvo used the same thing all the way up to the latest models with cat converters.
Approx $2000 in parts for everything. Engine still runs great 6 years later.

 

[otteray]

Might be a good idea to pull your spark plugs and check for water intrusion; what else was out of range in your sample? Alu? Cu? Pb? Water? Etc

Pulled a couple sparkplugs and they have dry black carbon; but not too excessive. Guessing from slow trolling for hours. Not seeing any evidence of water. They are a pain to get to with the tight engine quarters and working by feel. I'll do a couple more tomorrow.