Pinion Gear-Nut *new pic

fishinrado

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Nov 8, 2006
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hello all. what holds the pinon gear from slipping? i've tightened the nut and it worked for a few runs and now the gear is free spinning around the drive shaft. is there something that keeps the gear tight on the shaft other than the nut? i've rebuilt the lower end and have re-surfaced the dog legs and am now getting this free spin which will not allow the pinon gear to spin the forwared gear on drive shaft rotation......THANKS!!
 

jerryjerry05

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May 7, 2008
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Re: Pinon Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinon Gear And Nut ?'s

You are supposed to have a tongue and groove(driveshaft splines) to hold it in place.Remove the nut and check the end of the shaft for wear.You might not have had it on far enough when you tightened it.
Do you have any shavings in the case?Possible you stripped it.Jerry
 

Frank Acampora

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Jan 19, 2007
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Re: Pinon Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinon Gear And Nut ?'s

What holds the car together? The nut behind the wheel. LOL

While tightening a nut may seem simple, things are ALWAYS more complex than they look. Especially with marine applications.

Depending upon lower unit, some drive shafts (earlier) were splined to the pinion. Other newer ones have a locking taper with stub splines. However, it is important to torque the nut to 85 inch pounds both to properly locate the pinion on the shaft and to properly lock it onto the taper. Failure to do so-----

After removal, it is ALWAYS recommended to use a new nut. These nuts are deformed thread locknuts and only really good for one use. Re-use can cause them to loosen and then you know what happens to the pinion.
 

fishinrado

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Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

THANKS frank, jerry....yes i did find some minimal shavings when using a magnet to pull all of the crap out of the gearcase. frank this is the 78' 105 magnapower with the beat to hell clutch dogs you just commented on that "you hadn't seen much worse". after pulling it all apart it's apparent that this spun pinion nut and gear was the culprit the hole time. as the boat did run fine in and out of gear until this issue with the drive shaft spinning and not moving the prop shaft. i have the pinion nut off and it looks like the drive shaft will have to come out or up to allow the gear to fall; is that the case? do you have any tricks up your sleave to keep the gear from spinning on the shaft? re-groove etc. or am i looking at getting the shaft?
thanks again!! oh and is that nut replacable with something at lowe's or the like?
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Let me see--We are talking about the one piece lower unit, correct? Since the pinion is already loose, much of the work has been done for you. Usually it is stuck on the locking taper and you need some sort of impact tool to pull the shaft.

In your case, remove the water pump and lower mounting plate (7 screws total). When you pry up the lower plate, you will see the top bearing. All you need to do is pull up on the shaft. The pinion should drop into the case and now you can remove both the pinion and forward gear.

At the bottom of the shaft where the pinion locks on, you should see the taper about 1/2 inch long and the stub splines below the taper about 1/4 inch long. If the splines are broken off, then that calls for replacement of the drive shaft--it can not be reworked. You must also check the splines inside the pinion. If they are damaged, it needs replacement too.

Remember I said "nothing is ever simple"?

Well, when you replace the shaft, if you decide to buy a new one, it is a couple-3 hundred bucks. And it comes only with the bearing attached. Whether you get a new or a used shaft, it is absolutely MANDATORY to re-shim the pinion to the gears. SO, if your shaft is bad, Then you would be best off buying a good used lower unit. Now I will explain why:

While it doesn't look it, the lower unit is an extremely precise assembly. The gears must mesh to within a very close tolerance "sweet spot" or they will self destruct. The degree of mis-mating is completely predictive of the running life they will have. A high degree of mismatch will give a running life of only minutes. A high degree can be only a 5-10 thousandths of an inch. Remember: A lot of horsepower is being transmitted through about 3-4 teeth resulting in very high surface loads on the tooth faces. That's why an extreme pressure lubricant is needed.

The factory used some extremely accurate machining to set the forward and reverse gears into relation with each other and in fact, some forward gears are shimmed to the tapered roller bearing that carries them. Some cases are marked and some gears are also marked to ensure proper assembly tolerances. Anyway, you need not do anything with forward and reverse gears except set the prop shaft end play---this is an easy job. That's what the steel shim inside the forward gear does.

However, since the pinion can be set on the taper differently on each shaft because of tolerance, and because the upper bearing can sit differently on the drive shaft, you must shim the pinion. The upper bearing outer race is shimmed into the case and this controls the depth of engagement of the pinion into the other two gears.

There is a special tool to measure this. You can however shim without the tool but you must have a feel for it and you must be extremely careful and precise.

If you decide to try it without the tool, Here is what you do: You hold up the pinion and forward gear. You will see a very definite burnished pattern where the teeth mesh. Put the pinion and gear into engagement and roll them together. You will notice that at the "sweet spot" they will be silky smooth and at other depths of engagement they will feel rough or ragged. Measure the distance from the inside of the forward gear teeth to the pinion teeth.

Start with the shim pack already under the outer race of the upper bearing. Inset the forward gear, insert the shaft , and attach the pinion. using the old nut, torque to 85 inch pounds. Now, push down on the shaft while turning it. If it feels silky smooth, then double check by looking at the depth of engagement and by carefully putting some light grease on the pinion. Check to see that it rubs off onto the forward gear only on the burnished parts of the gears. If it does, you are finished. replace the nut with a new one and reassemble the gearcase.

If it does not, then you must see if the pinion is high or low and either subtract or add shims. Obviously, this can be very time consuming since you must disassemble, clean, and reassemble for each try. The tool uses a standard shim and a reference point so you only need to do it once.

I got carried away again--a little wordy but now you have learned something.
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Frank did that all in one breath too!!!! :):p:D
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

BTW: the nut is most likely a standard nut that could be found at a store like Fastenal. However, to be certain, I would spend the 5 bucks and get it at Merc.

That said, If I were rebuilding a lower unit for you I would buy a new nut.

When I do it for myself----The nut is a thin walled flanged nut. When you turn it, one face may have a dot on it. This is where it was "staked" to deform the threads. If you take a punch and whack it a good shot you will re-stake it and it will act like new.

If it does not have the stake mark, it was deformed by squeezing it to a slightly oval shape. This can be renewed by squeezing it in a vise. Do it carefully so you don't go too far. The object is to have enough interference to stop it from loosening--not so much that it is too difficult to put on and affects the tightening torque.
 

fishinrado

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Nov 8, 2006
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Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s

hi frank, great symposium on the exact tollerances of gear meshing! yes i understand what you are saying and yes i can see the wear pattern on the gears. what doesn't make sense is why the heck i've read 50 posts on guys who can't get their nuts off and mine won't say on! sorry couldn't resist.....
well my only choice it seems is to find another lower unit that will fit this motor. that way i will have spare parts laying around for the future. like i said i didn't pay diddly doo for this boat ($200) and the top end runs like a dream , contrary to popular beleif, so what the heck i like tinkering anyway. gets me out in the garage and away from the hectic pace of my life. are we getting philosophical here? i'm glad i pulled the whole thing apart as you have helped me understand the goings on of the lower end and that knowlege is priceless. thanks for taking the time to help out us chrysler saps. i'll be back with some hairbrain scheme to salvage this lower end however before i give up! happy 4th........
 

fishinrado

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Nov 8, 2006
Messages
137
Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s *NEW PIC

Re: Pinion Gear And Nut ?'s *NEW PIC

hey frank thought i'd post a pic of the damaged end of this shaft. as you can see the end of the drive shaft has been spun clean and now is shiney with no splines. bummer this causes the whole lower end not to work. do you think it's feasible to shim in a new shaft considering the wear on the dog and gears ? if i go the rout of a used lower end do you have any idea what years i can mesh with this top end. again it's a 1978 105 magnapower and this lower end is a one piece (although i thought I read in a post they weren't available until 79)....thanks again!
 

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Frank Acampora

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Re: Pinion Gear-Nut *new pic

By the time you get a shaft, fix the dogs and shim everything, you might as well get a used unit.

Any 1 piece lower unit from 1979 through 1990, any size from 75 through 150 HP will fit. Your lower unit is 1.78 to 1 ratio.

However---If you want to wake up that 105, get a 2 to 1 ratio lower -- from All 90 hp and some force 85 HP. If you do this, go up 2 pitches on prop and you will gain 3-5 MPH

Double check your engine: It should have Tillotsen WB carbs with 1 5/16 venturis. If it does, and if you want to wake it up some more, Get Tillotsen TC carbs and manifolds off a Chrysler 125, 140 or Force 125. They are 1 5/8 venturis and they bolt right up. They are so much more massive that you need the manifolds also. They will give a bit more horses and a couple of MPH more. --Not a magic bullet but the engine will produce a respectable 110-115 horsepower instead of the anemic 90-100 it does now.

If you already have TC carbs, then there is no more you can easily do. If you are interested in TC carbs, private mail me.
 
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