question about lake shoreline work/extension

[bleedblue94]

Hi everyone, not sure if this would be the right place to post this but I am going to take a chance. I am currently looking at purchasing a cottage on one of the finger lakes in NY. The cottage is elevated from the water level, and there is a stairway down to the 70' of frontage that is deeded to the house. The issue is that at the base of the stairs are concrete blocks making a 10'x10' area at the water level for people to gather at. The remaining 60' or so is basically not in use at all and is at the base of a cliff.

I was wondering about building a retaining wall or dumping dirt to extend the usable frontage area out towards the lake, but I'm not sure what to do. I have just recently been in contact with the DEC who has been less than helpful w suggestions. I understand a retaining wall may have a detrimental affect on aquatic life, so I am not set on that. Installing a permanant dock/deck could be an option but my undertstanding is that there is considerable ice buildup in this area during the winter that damages docks.

Many people have the removable docks, but the current lack of shoreline area leaves no place to put a removable boat hoist or large dock.

I was hoping maybe someone on here may have a good idea or insight on some possible options I may have to make use of the frontage??

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

I believe the DEC maintains jurisdiction. I'm just looking for ideas. I may drive to the property today and take some pictures

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

department of environmental conservation

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

any way you look at it you can't fill, look into wet land rules you will have to live with what you got unless you want to spend 50 grand (price here to buy wetland replacement

 

[hungupthespikes]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

Had an uncle that had the same problem. The lake would keep eating away at the property until he had cliffs. He used old bricks by the truck loads, stopped the erosion.

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

Had an uncle that had the same problem. The lake would keep eating away at the property until he had cliffs. He used old bricks by the truck loads, stopped the erosion.

ahh thank you. did he just use the bricks for creating a wall, or to line a bedding basically?

the dec basically told me they are not too hot about solid vertical walls bc they create a hard rebound of the waves which can affect aquatic life ect. so they seemed to be ok with some ideas regarding irregular sloped structures with allot of variances in the area facing the lake. i am trying to think of ideas to slow this erosion.

did your uncle just "stop" the erosion, or was he able to do anything to reestablish his lost shoreline?

 

[roscoe]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

Welcome to the wonderful world of lakefront property.

Good luck, doing anything in the littoral, shoreline, or riparian zones..

Get your ducks in a row, permits in hand, and blessings from every person in the state.

Looks like there are many pages on the net, from the DEC, doesn't look like they allow much to be done.







Shoreline Stabilization - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

DEC Permits Required
Protection of Waters (ECL Article 15,Title 5)
Applies to disturbance to bed or banks of streams classified as C(T) or higher, and excavation or placement of fill below the mean high water level of navigable waters of the state (including wetlands that are adjacent to and contiguous at any point to any navigable water of the state)

Freshwater Wetlands (ECL Article 24)
Applies to NYSDEC regulated Freshwater Wetlands (i.e., outside the Adirondack Park)

Basis for Permit Issuance:
The proposal must be reasonable and NECESSARY (i.e., it will resolve a problem).
It must not endanger the health, safety or welfare of the people of the State of New York.
It must not cause unreasonable, uncontrolled or unnecessary damage to the natural resources of the state, including soil, forests, water, fish, shellfish, crustaceans and the aquatic and land-related environment.


Permits may also be required from other government agencies, such as but not limited to:

Adirondack Park Agency (518-891-4050) - If your proposal involves shoreline work in the Adirondack Park, please contact the Adirondack Park Agency before finalizing plans. This will help to eliminate unnecessary delays and assure that your project design satisfies both agencies.

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (NY District: 518-266-6350; Buffalo District: 716-879-4330) - The Corps of Engineers regulates activities involving dredging, excavation, placement of fill, or construction of certain structures in waterways and wetlands of the United States.

Further Information and Jurisdictional Inquiries
Please contact the appropriate DEC Regional Environmental Permits office, based on the county where the project is located.


Retaining Walls

Retaining walls are not encouraged and generally are not approved.

 

[Jeep Man]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

Changing the shoreline is not permitted on our lake. What is permitted and done often is the installation of a permanent dock, whereby steel pylons are driven into the lake bottom or cemented into place and the deck built on top. This method can withstand the ice and has minimum impact on the environment.

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

im familiar with the wooden pylons being driven into the lake bed, but not steel. my main issue is just finding a way to make use of this frontage. it is the only thing holding up my purchase of the property. i have an email out to the dec regarding any issues with building a large permanent dock or even a large floating dock that would make use of the 70'

if a permanent dock can be built that goes from the existing shoreline and stretches out into the water where i can add a boat hoist, and i can place large stones under the deck to help protect it from ice that would even work. i am trying to figure out if the dec requires permits for such construction, bc according to this it looks as if a permit may not even be required:

Construction, Reconstruction or Expansion of Docking and Mooring Facilities - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

im specifically referring to #2 listed in exemptions

i have a call in now to nys land management. apparently their call supersedes the dec

 

[greenbush future]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

What are your neighbors doing, what do they offer as far as advice? I own on Lake Huron in Michigan, and will suggest you will get eaten alive with regulations, and much of it is just a waste of time. These groups of govt people charge at every step of the process and anything that involves filling or changing, is really just not an option. The rules they ask us to follow are quite comical, no pulling weeds, no raking the beach, and for sure no filling anything in. I really feel sorry for anyone who is looking to build on the water, they make it very difficult to even get to the beach. My father decided to seek permits to add to his lawn going down to the beach, we calculated they charged him over $1000 in fee's just to say "yes". I think post and build raised decking options might be the easiest way, but I would read the regs and seek advice from your neighbors, they most likely have been down this road before.

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

nys land management says i have the right to build a structure off my shore to create usable area for water related actives as does the dec, here is the direct response from the dec:

Docks are allowable and most docks do not need a permit. The key is that docks must be used for a water-dependent use - meaning decks for chairs and barbeques are not exempt and usually are not allowed. Docks would be no wider than about 6 feet and extend out into the water perpendicular to the land.

so i can obviously build a dock and install hoist. i believe i will be looking at a proposal that would be able to house my two jet skis, my boat, and a boat house. the current stairs leading down to the lakefront are on the far left of the property line. if i build a structure to house my boat, two jet skis, and a boat house for water supplies everything is water related. i see no reason they can prevent that, and if i want an area down at the water to hang out (such as a hang out deck), why couldnt i just locate such a thing on top of the boat house?

while talking to land management i was informed there is no fee for proposals and that they basically treat the proposals as a negotiation. both agencies inadvertently revealed i have a bargaining chip bc they would like a crib structure removed that is at the shore right now, but is protected bc it is grandfathered...

as for neighbors, the lot to the left is vacant and is for sale. they own only 28' of frontage and have done nothing with it. they do however have stone peddle shore. the neighbors to the right look like they build a large retaining wall years ago and filled it to create usable area (lucky bastages)

 

[hungupthespikes]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

OP "did your uncle just "stop" the erosion, or was he able to do anything to reestablish his lost shoreline?"

He just dumped them in. About 6-10 feet out into the water. He was on a point so he had to go all the way around. He never stopped adding bricks either. A survey of the original plot dimensions gave him the right to go out 30 ft. from the point. Just reclaiming his land.

He never make it that far, before having to give up the cottage due to age, but you could walk all the way around with about a 6 ft. wide path from the cliff to the water. So the bricks did work to reestablish some of the land.

The bricks make a great place for all the small marine life to thrive. My boys would venture out on the bricks and catch anything they could. Lots of fun.

good luck
huts

 

[LongLine]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

Remember the old saying, "It's a lot easier to beg forgiveness than to get permission". Just sayin...

Unfortunately this isn't true where water ways/lakes in NYS are concerned. I know some people whom the DEC made remove what they built & pay a heavy fine. Make sure you have it in writing from DEC (which looks like you do). Also check with local town and see if you need a building permit.

Tom B.
(LongLine)

 

[PW2]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

You can't do anything to the shoreline without a permit, and you are likely to need DEC approval to get a permit. You likely to need an EIS to even apply for a permit.

The reality is that whatever is done to the shoreline affects not only your shoreline, but shorelines in the proximity. It mat keep you from doing what you want, but it is just as likely to keep your neighbor from doing something worse.

 

[bleedblue94]

Re: question about lake shoreline work/extension

i am going thru the proper processes. my offer on the property was accepted so i am focusing on that stuff right now. i am going to apply to build a retaining walla and then dig into the bluff and pull the soil down to fill the wall and level it. my soon to be neightbor did the same thing