Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

swist

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jul 1, 2004
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678
One of the problems with using gas mixed with alcohol is that the alcohol is a pretty powerful solvent. Stories abound of goo and crud entering the engine (or hopefully just the filters) where the alcohol has dislodged some longstanding deposit.<br /><br />Does this argue that this kind of gas might do a better job of keeping varnish out of carbs, and reduce or eliminate the need to use Stabil when the boat is infrequenty used?
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Nope. Gas still degrades with or without ethanol. I hear the solvent argument all the time. GAS is a pretty powerful solvent all by itself. Also, alcohol won't dissolve varnish. Not much will. Not even acetone. Not that it won't dissolve other components left behind, but it seems to be minimal.
 

ricksrster

Commander
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Jun 19, 2005
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Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Some of us have probably been using ethanol for years and never realized it.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
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Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Originally posted by ricksrster:<br /> Some of us have probably been using ethanol for years and never realized it.
Whats in the gas is stated on the pump...Fed Law
 

phatmanmike

Captain
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Oct 24, 2003
Messages
3,869
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Originally posted by SCAATY:<br />
Originally posted by ricksrster:<br /> Some of us have probably been using ethanol for years and never realized it.
Whats in the gas is stated on the pump...Fed Law
yes, but who actually looks at the pump. john q. public doesnt care, as long as his excursion can get to the mall!
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Some older engines have gaskets, rubber parts, and other fuel system parts that may be affected by ethanol in blended fuel. The ethanol can break down these components and the result is a plugged fuel filter and carb jets. This is a temporary situation as once the system is cleaned and rebuilt with modern kits you'll be ok. Us midwesterners have used "corn squeezins" for years with no ill effects (at least in my experience).
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

only silver lining so far has been in my pocket.<br /> ethanol sucks for marine use.<br /> so far its new here but we find it does not tolerate any water intrusion, if it does the results are nasty.<br /> I have an F150 yam with 30 hours on it that had water in the tank. so far I have spent 11 hours trying to flush the system.<br /> customer stopped by the house last night and told me the top RPM is dropping again so it looks like another VST and injector cleaning, lucky for me I have it down to under 2 hours now.<br /> the ethanol will hold the water in suspension and it WILL pass the water seperator and recongeal in the VST and injector filters and carb cleaner spray does not affect the film it leaves.<br />it actually looks like snot.
 

imported_Curmudgeon

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
496
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

.. it actually looks like snot.<br /><br />But it's green snot, saves so much oil, and is so invironmentally correct! ;)
 

jprasisto

Seaman
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
52
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Whats in the gas is stated on the pump...Fed Law <br />
Well that may be but in NJ they are not required to tell you the % mixture of ethanol. Usually 10% but....Could pose warranty issues for new engines. Not sure if anything will actually happen but you never know.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Hey Rodbolt, just curious -- are the engines you see with the water problems sitting for long periods? If so, how long, uncovered, and is there a salt/fresh water situation or does the problem apply to both? I'm on the water a lot, (fresh water obviously) and my boat is exposed to drenching rains, rough water, and I have never talked to anyone with water-in-fuel problems.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

I'm thinking to start taping off my tank vents on my boats when not using them, and just sitting in the slip. I do it over winter now anyway. Now with junk Ethanol it will be worse, as it sucks water out of the air. And start over winter storage with just a small amount of gas left in the tank, fresh, stabiled, and on my 2 stroke outboard tank, enough oil for 20 gallons mixed with just a few gallons gas. Slosh around the best I can, and cap/tape everything up. Leave a note on the wheel about the oil. On my big boat 350 GM 4 Cycle with 90 gallon tank, same thing, only use Marvel Mystery Oil in proportion to what I will fill up with in the spring. Ya gotta figure on this boat with 90 gallon tank, if stored full, thats damn near 10 gallons of corrosive Ethanol, ready to suck water, and eat my tank alive. Thoughts?
 

T_I_M

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
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Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Thought you all might want to read Mercury Marine's view on ethanol....<br /><br /><br />Mercury Marine remains very active in developing a thorough understanding of<br />important issues and environments in which our products must operate.<br />Mercury’s engineers work constantly to expand our understanding of fuel<br />technologies and their interactions with all Mercury products to ensure they<br />perform properly and reliably. Mercury personnel work in concert with industry<br />groups, such as the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), to offer<br />input into the overall processes by which many decisions are made regarding<br />fuel regulations and energy policies so future problems are minimized and future<br />developments are beneficial to those who utilize our products.<br />Included below is a list of questions and answers that address typical concerns of<br />consumers.<br />Please feel free to contact any Mercury Marine field representative with<br />questions, or contact us at public.relations@mercmarine.com. Mercury will do its<br />best to help find answers, whether you’re seeking general information or wishing<br />to discuss legal proposals, or if you’re seeking information regarding ethanoltolerant<br />materials.<br /><br />1. What are ethanol and ethanol-blended fuels?<br />Ethanol for fuel is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200<br />proof, that can be produced from natural products such as corn, sugar cane and<br />wheat. New technology will allow ethanol to be made from “cellulosic” feedstocks<br />including corn stalks, grain straw, paper, pulp, wood chips, municipal waste,<br />switchgrass and other sources. Ethanol used for fuel has been “denatured,” or<br />rendered unsafe to drink by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually gasoline). The<br />ethanol-blended fuel E-10 refers to fuel that contains 10 percent ethanol and 90<br />percent gasoline. Similarly, E-85 refers to fuel that contains 85 percent ethanol<br />and 15 percent gasoline. E-85 is intended only for engines specially designed to<br />accept high-ethanol content fuel blends, such as the Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV)<br />made by some car companies.<br />Mercury and Ethanol<br /><br />2. How is ethanol made?<br />In the U.S., ethanol is typically produced by removing the starch or sugar portion<br />of corn and fermenting it. The fermented starch is then distilled into alcohol.<br />Excess water is removed, resulting in very pure – 200 proof – ethyl alcohol<br />(ethanol).<br />In some parts of the world, ethanol is made from a variety of raw materials. For<br />example, sugar cane is used to produce ethanol in Brazil, while sugar beets and<br />wheat straw are commonly used in Europe.<br /><br /><br />3. What are the characteristics of ethanol?<br />Ethanol is an oxygenated hydrocarbon compound that has a high octane rating<br />and therefore is useful in increasing the octane level of unleaded gasoline. The<br />EPA, the agency responsible for setting some of the requirements for all gasoline<br />used in the U.S., has allowed the use of ethanol in gasoline at levels up to 10<br />percent as an octane enhancer and to provide beneficial clean-burning<br />combustion characteristics that help improve some emissions.<br />Ethanol is hygroscopic (it has an attraction for water) and will more readily mix<br />with water than with gasoline. It has different solvency behaviors than does<br />gasoline, which allows it to loosen rust and debris that might lay undisturbed in<br />fuel systems. And it can more readily remove plasticizers and resins from certain<br />plastic materials that might not be affected by gasoline alone. Loose debris will<br />plug filters and can interfere with engine operation. Additionally, ethanol is<br />corrosive to some metals, especially in combination with water. Although<br />gasoline does not conduct electricity well, ethanol has an appreciable capability<br />to conduct electricity and therefore can promote galvanic corrosion.<br /><br /><br />4. What is MTBE and why is it being replaced?<br />MTBE is the chemical shorthand description for methyl tertiary-butyl ether.<br />MTBE is another oxygenated hydrocarbon compound that has a high octane<br />rating. It was initially a preferred compound widely used for octane enhancement<br />as a replacement for leaded compounds in gasoline. When the EPA developed<br />regulations requiring oxygenated gasoline to help reduce smog in several areas<br />of the country, MTBE was the most commonly used compound to supply the<br />additional oxygen, while ethanol was chosen for this purpose in the Midwest<br />region of the country. Recently, most states have banned the use of MTBE<br />because of its tendency to work its way into ground water systems, usually from<br />leaks and spills, as an undesirable contaminant. Ethanol is being used as a<br />replacement.<br /><br /><br />5. Does ethanol affect horsepower or fuel-efficiency?<br />Ethanol has a heating value of 76,000 BTU per gallon, which is approximately 30<br />percent less than gasoline’s heating value (which is approximately 109,000 to<br />119,000 BTU/gal). The result is E-10 gasoline which should yield slightly lower<br />mileage – a decrease of approximately 3 percent. Fuels containing higher levels<br />of ethanol will have a corresponding reduction in mileage. For example, E85<br />fuels produce mileage approximately 30 percent less than gasoline.<br />The octane rating of pure ethanol (200 proof) is about 100 and is therefore useful<br />in elevating the octane value of gasoline. In E-10 blends the presence of ethanol<br />provides about 2.5 to 3 percent of the overall octane rating. The effect on engine<br />horsepower is determined by the octane result of the blended fuel. Care should<br />be taken to select fuels having the octane rating recommended for the engine as<br />indicated in the owner’s manual for proper operation.<br /><br /><br />Compatibility with Mercury Engines<br />6. Are Mercury engines compatible with ethanol fuels?<br />The fuel-system components of Mercury engines will withstand up to 10 percent<br />alcohol content in gasoline – the maximum level currently allowed by the EPA in<br />the U.S. There are some efforts to establish E-20 (20 percent ethanol mixed with<br />80 gasoline) for use in some areas, but that will require agreement from EPA to<br />grant a waiver. Part of the EPA waiver process will require verification from<br />studies that demonstrate that higher levels of ethanol do not create problems<br />with fuel-system materials or operation of hardware. E-20 has not been<br />extensively studied by Mercury and is not acceptable for use in Mercury<br />products. E-85 fuels must not be used in any Mercury engines and could<br />seriously damage current Mercury products. It is not legal in the U.S. to market<br />any ethanol fuel as gasoline if it contains more than 10 percent ethanol.<br /><br /><br />7. Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine<br />warranty?<br />Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in<br />Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol are not considered<br />acceptable for use, and the use of fuels containing ethanol higher than 10<br />percent can void the warranty.<br /><br />8. What about the fuel-system components on the boat?<br />It is important to follow boat manufacturers’ recommendations when selecting<br />appropriate fuels. Use of an inappropriate fuel can result in damage to the engine<br />and boat components that may require repair or replacement. Fuels with ethanol<br />can attack some fuel-system components, such as tanks and lines, if they are not<br />made from acceptable ethanol-compatible materials. This can lead to operational<br />problems or safety issues such as clogged filters, leaks or engine damage.<br /><br /><br />9. Can ethanol-blended fuels affect the performance of twostroke<br />engines?<br />Two-stroke outboards should experience little or no decrease in performance due<br />to gasoline fuels containing up to 10-percent ethanol when operated according to<br />Mercury’s standard recommendations. When gasoline with ethanol is used for<br />the first time after a fuel changeover from MTBE, the tank must be completely dry<br />prior to introduction of gasoline with ethanol. Otherwise, phase separation could<br />occur that could cause filter plugging or damage to the engine. If an engine is a<br />1990 or older model frequent inspections of all fuel-system components are<br />advised to identify any signs of leakage, softening, hardening, swelling or<br />corrosion. If any sign of leakage or deterioration is observed, replacement of the<br />affected components is required before further operation.<br /><br /><br />10. How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank?<br />Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline<br />containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some<br />resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe<br />damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the<br />manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used.<br /><br /><br />11. Are older fuel lines prone to failure? What about gaskets?<br />During the 1980s, many rubber components for use in fuel systems were<br />developed to withstand exposure to fuels containing ethanol. If rubber<br />components in a fuel system are suspected to be of this vintage or older it may<br />be advisable to replace them with newer ethanol-safe components before using<br />fuels containing ethanol. Check with the manufacturer for advice or frequently<br />inspect these fuel-system components for signs of swelling or deterioration and<br />replace if problems are noted.<br /><br />Recommended Practices<br />12. Ethanol is replacing MTBE in my region? What should I do?<br />Before gasoline with ethanol is introduced to your fuel tank, ask your boat<br />manufacturer if any special precautions should be considered with the use of fuel<br />containing ethanol. Check for the presence of water in the fuel tank. If any is<br />found, remove all water and dry the tank completely. As a precaution, it is<br />advisable to carry a few extra filters in case filter plugging becomes a problem<br />during boating.<br /><br /><br />13. Should I add an additional fine-micron filter to the system to<br />prevent debris from entering the engine?<br />The addition of another filter to the system will create another possible flow<br />restriction that can starve the engine of fuel. Mercury already provides the<br />appropriate level of filtration to protect the engine from debris.<br /><br /><br />14. How can a marina prepare for the change from MTBE to<br />ethanol as the fuel oxygenate?<br />Check with the manufacturer to make certain the tank and lines won’t experience<br />problems with ethanol. Inspect the tank for water and, if present, pump out all<br />water and thoroughly clean the tank. Install ethanol-compatible filters. The tank<br />should be less than 20 percent full before adding the first load of fuel with<br />ethanol.<br /><br /><br />15. What is phase separation, and how do I deal with it?<br />If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that<br />contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is<br />reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond<br />this level of water, phase separation could cause most of the ethanol and water<br />to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline<br />with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase (see Figure 1<br />below). If the lower phase of water and ethanol is large enough to reach the fuel<br />inlet, it could be pumped directly to the engine and cause significant problems.<br />Even if the ethanol water phase at the bottom of the tank is not drawn into the<br />fuel inlet, the reduced ethanol level of the fuel reduces the octane rating by as<br />much as 3 octane numbers, which could result in engine problems.<br />The level at which phase separation can occur is determined by a number of<br />variables, including the amount of ethanol, the composition of the fuel, the<br />temperature of the environment and the presence of contaminants. It is very<br />important (A) that the system is inspected for significant quantities of water in the tank before using gasoline with ethanol and (B) to limit exposure of the fuel tank<br />to excess water. If phase separation has occurred, it is necessary to completely<br />remove all free water from the system and replace the fuel before continuing<br />operation. Otherwise, engine problems could occur.<br /><br />EDIT......Sorry, couldn't get the figure 1 to post but trust me you can see the separation.)<br /><br /><br />Figure 1: Sample of fuel from fuel tank in which phase separation<br />has occurred. The upper phase is gasoline with a reduced level<br />of ethanol. The lower level is a mixture of ethanol and water.<br /><br /><br />16. Is an additive available that can prevent phase separation?<br />There is no practical additive that can prevent phase separation from occurring.<br />The only practical solution is to keep water from accumulating in the tank in the<br />first place.<br /><br /><br />17. Are there any additives that can allow the phase-separated<br />mixture to remix when added to the fuel tank?<br />No, the only way to avoid further problems is to remove the water, dispose of the<br />depleted fuel, clean the tank and start with a fresh, dry load of fuel.<br /><br />18. Is there a simple solution to water condensation in the tank<br />as a result of ethanol?<br />It is best to maintain a full tank of fuel when the engine is not in use. This will<br />reduce the void space above the fuel and will reduce the flow of air in and out of<br />the tank with changes in temperature. This will reduce condensation on the<br />internal walls of the tank and will limit exposure of the ethanol in the fuel to<br />humidity and condensation.<br /><br /><br />19. What should be done when storing boats with ethanolblended<br />fuels for extended periods?<br />When preparing to store a boat for extended periods of two months or more, it is<br />best to completely remove all fuel from the tank. If it is difficult or not possible to<br />remove the fuel, maintaining a full tank of fuel with a fuel stabilizer added to<br />provide fuel stability and corrosion protection is recommended. A partially full<br />tank is not recommended because the void space above the fuel allows air<br />movement that can bring in water through condensation as the temperature<br />cycles up and down. This condensation potentially becomes a problem. Mercury<br />Marine Fuel System Treatment & Stabilizer can help maintain fuel systems in<br />storage. It contains oxidation inhibitors to reduce oxidation and gum formation,<br />metal chelating agents to protect metal components from corrosion, water<br />absorbing agents to reduce the presence of free water, and dispersants to help<br />suspend and disperse debris. It is best used by adding to the tank at the<br />recommended dosage, running the engine for 10 minutes to allow the system to<br />be cleaned, shutting off the fuel valve to interrupt the fuel supply and allow the<br />engine to run until it stops, topping off the tank until it’s full, and capping any<br />openings to reduce the amount of exchange with the air that might bring in<br />condensation.
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Wow, T_I_M. You musta wore your fingers to bloody stumps. :eek: ;) <br /><br />Dunno how true it is, but I heered that the manufacturer, distributor, and seller can all add 10% and still claim 10% Ethanol. That's a potential 30% claimed as 10%. :eek: That's what I heered, anyhow. Well Blow Me Down! ;) <br /><br />You know what the sweet potato said, dontcha? "I yam wut I yam." :D <br /><br />(Don't mind me. Somebuddy spiked me pipe. ;) )
 

swist

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
678
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Thye big news to me in this post is their recommendation of not adding another 10-micron filter - I and a lot of people seem to think this is the way to go, but this is the first recommendation against it I've seen in many Ethanol threads in teo different forums.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

and that is why yamaha developed the 10 micron 90GPH filter.<br /> no the EFI motors and DFI motors DO NOT have enough filtration. I replace/clean VST filters and injectors all the time.<br /> that watery snot looking goo will pass through a water seperator but not the injector filters.<br /> trust me I am cleaning a lot of them.<br /> here in the salt pond the humidity is high and 99% of the boats do not have sealed fuel systems like a car.<br /> it does not take a lot of water to have a seperation issue.<br />so while I realize some folks have never had an issue a lot of folks are and its going to get worse this summer.<br />I forsee a few blown motors and lots and lots of fuel system work for me this summer.<br />yall can quote all the theory and spout all the manufacturer studies ya wish, I fix them daily.
 

cobra 3.0

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
1,797
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Looks like this etahnol fuel is here to stay and will be standard everywhere in the near future. I haven't seen it yet up here in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. <br /><br />So the solution maybe some kind of "closeable vent" ...maybe we may even need to go to a system that brings in only dehumidified air?<br /><br />I can't see changing specialized filters everytime you go out. (But I'm sure the filter companies would love that one!!!!)
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

I cant believe the EPA has not shut down non-sealed fuel systems in boats years ago.<br /> cars have had sealed systems for years.<br /> but even then once you start getting water in the gas alchohol tends to do nasty things, best way is to keep the water out to start with.<br /> the perko type deck fills with the oring are notorious water leakers, the orings tend to dry rot and crack rapidly and often, then rainwater seeps past. over a month it will leak in a couple quarts.<br /> it happens and happens a lot.<br /> I make a lot of money replacing the orings,after a tank and fuel system flush.<br /> have not seen a boat owner yet that actually looked at the orings when fueling.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Originally posted by WillyBWright:<br /> Wow, T_I_M. You musta wore your fingers to bloody stumps. <br /><br />Its a copy and paste, so no typing...<br /> <br />Dunno how true it is, but I heered that the manufacturer, distributor, and seller can all add 10% and still claim 10% Ethanol. That's a potential 30% claimed as 10%.
It is not legal in the U.S. to market<br />any ethanol fuel as gasoline if it contains more than 10 percent ethanol. Stated above. The feds check gas all the time here....<br /><br /> Heres a link to see the crap that can occur with Phase Seperation..<br /> mercurymarine.com/ethanol
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Here in the NW we've used the 10% mix for many years and I can't say that it's really caused many problems, maybe we're just used to it now.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Sil;ver Lining in Ethanol Cloud?

Originally posted by ondarvr:<br /> Here in the NW we've used the 10% mix for many years and I can't say that it's really caused many problems, maybe we're just used to it now.
10% MTBE maybe..NOT Ethanol. Quotes and sources.....<br /><br />• Neither the MTBE phase-out nor the substitution of ethanol is a serious part of the increase. Washington State uses only conventional gasoline and Puget Sound contains the largest refining capacity in the West outside California, yet the rise in its pump prices nearly mirrored that in California, which uses an ethanol blend;<br /> web page <br /><br />Changes in Gasoline Additives. In 2005, several petroleum companies announced their intent to remove MTBE, or methyl tertiary-butyl ether, from gasoline in time for the 2006 summer driving season. Water contamination concerns, along with increased liability exposure, are among the driving forces behind this change. MTBE is being replaced by Ethanol, a renewable fuel source. Many states, including Washington, have passed legislation to help regulate this transition and to encourage refineries to look to companies who produce Ethanol from crops grown in Washington State. This transition, however, will contribute to the higher price of gasoline for a period of time.<br /><br /> web page
 
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