Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

[petes penn]

hello all, new to the boating world. Well, the larger boating world. I just purchased a 1975 Penn Yan Tunnel Drive boat. It is 20 feet long and has an inboard GM 350. I have been having some issues getting it to start. The following is a list of NEW parts I have purchased and installed over the last couple of days:

Plugs
Cap
Rotor
Modual in distributor
Coil
Wires
Battery + cable
Marine terminals
Fuel Pump

I removed the starter and had it tested at our local automotive store. It passed. I figured it would fail as it appears to be original to the boat. I charged up both Marine batteries. I have a dual battery setup with the marine switch. I also removed the ground and cleaned all the terminals of corrosion.

My problem is the cranking speed of the starter. It is to slow to fire the engine. I need both batteries to achieve a some what swifter turn over and it is noticably slower with only one. I have read several posts here and on other sites and they all seem to point to replacing the starter. I killed the batteries right quick and feel that at least one new marine battery is a good purchase. The batteries I have only max out at 550 CCA. With a V8, should I have a larger CCA, say around 700 or so? Also, is it possible that the starter is still bad or failing even though the test proved otherwise?

Any aid in this woud be appreciated. I was hoping to get it in the water this season but things are not looking so bright right now. I'll shoot some pics for your entertainment a little later. Until then, I remain frustrated......

 

[JustJason]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

more than likely you have either bad battery cables or cable ends. they get corroded up over time and all the juice that's supposed to go to the starter just gets eaten up by the wires.
I bet your cables/ends get wicked hot.... don't they.

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

No as a matter of fact they did not. I replaced the main positive cable from the battery to the starter and I replace the cable terminals with new marine grade ones. I also cleaned the ground to the block. I did notice that the ground is made up with 3 cables with the ends bolted together with stainless. I thought that was odd and plan on a trip to westmarine for a continous run. The pos cable brom the alternator to the starter is new. It was new when I got the boat.

Still frustrated and scratching my head. I mean, its pretty simple right?

 

[JustJason]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

not always, at this point your going to need a digital multimeter and start doing voltage drop tests to find out whats eating up your current.
you could have a bad battery switch, bad solenoid, bad grounds... the list goes on.
time for some troubleshooting.
west marine is way over prices on their cables. go to a starter/alternator shop in your area to get cables made there. or, what i do (because i have an endless supply of it) is to make up battery cables using high quality car stereo cables. Stuff from Monster cable, etc. It's much easier to work with, flexable, and much better quality than 0 Gauge battery cable.

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Thanks for the cable tip. I had no idea you could use that for power supply purposes. I priced out a starter and it came in around $55. Am I not finding the correct one?

So I whipped out the multimeter and tested for power. I have 12v at eh starter, and at the coil. under load, the voltage on the batteries drops to the 9 range. Is this to low and should I get larger CCA batteries to deal with the added draw of the 8 cyl. engine?

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

I would personally go with something between to 700-800 cold cranking amps. Your two batteries together, though, should be enough to crank the engine. My 350 has 1 750 CCA heavy duty battery, and it fires the engine up just fine. So your setup should be more than adequate.

When they tested your starter, was it just a spin test? It's possible for a starter to spin freely just fine, but if it's old and tired enough, it might not put out the torque you need to turn the engine over fast enough.

Can't tell you if you're looking at the right starter or not, but there should only be two different starters to deal with. If you have two bolts straight across from each-other, you have a long/short mount.

If you have staggered bolts, you have a staggered mount.

There's a seller on Ebay called DB electric with really reasonable prices. I got a starter from them, and it works like a champ!

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Uraijit, thanks for theinput. The starter was just spin tested at Autozone. My starter has 2 bolts next to each other. I guess I will start by replacing the wiring with new. I particular, the split up ground wire. i don't like the fact that it is held together with bolts. One straight run seems better. I think I may bypass the switch as well. And get a new marine battery, then the starter.

Man, the list just grows as it sits idle in my driveway.............

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Wow! I just realized what you meant when you said a lot of wires bolted together. I thought you were saying that a lot of different ground wires were all terminated at one bolt!

Yeah, get that ground wire fixed quick. That seems like a great way to cause the problems you're speaking of... 1 solid wire, 2 gauge min. No splicing/piggy-backing.

Forget the marine battery! Unless you're using it for trolling, or something. Just get a heavy duty automotive battery.

I'm a fan of the Everstart Yellow Heavy Duty batteries at wal-mart. 3 years free exchange, 72 month pro-rated warranty. And they're cheap and reliable...

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Just a thought but is your ignition timing set properly - as in not excessively advanced (BTDC)?

Cheers and good luck!

 

[Eliminator]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Have you had the engine running yet? If so does it run well? Does it turn over freely by hand or with plugs out?

Specs I have seen on Pico battery switches don't have very high cranking amps so could have some drop there. Charge and have battery's load tested, if ok great, Bypass battery switch and temporally hook up short clean cables to starter and block.

But you can do it all with voltage drop tests as previously mentioned. Digital volt meter, ground side one lead on neg terminal of battery itself, other to block and crank. Want less than 1 Volt and closer to zero the better. Pos side. one lead to pos battery terminal of battery and other to motor terminal of starter. That would be the one that the starter solenoid terminal with the screw that hooks up the brass bars to the motor itself, just opposite battery terminal. Same thing 1 volt or less while cranking.

All the best!

 

[Fishermark]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

I did notice that the ground is made up with 3 cables with the ends bolted together with stainless. I thought that was odd and plan on a trip to westmarine for a continous run.....


The pos cable brom the alternator to the starter is new. It was new when I got the boat.

How far is your battery from your engine? Any runs of cable shouldn't be more than 2 ft or so - 3 at the most. If you are running farther than that I would relocate your batteries.

Same is true of the positive. When you say that the cable from the alternator to the starter is new.... what about the one from the BATTERY to the starter? That's the important one.

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Hello all and thanks again for the valuable input. Here are some answers to your questions:

Wait! Are you saying you have three wires in series (Like this ---) connected together for a ground?

yes, 3 4ft ground cables strung together with stainles nuts and bolts.....BAD!

Have you had the engine running yet? If so does it run well? Does it turn over freely by hand or with plugs out?

No. I have not had it running. It does turn over freely by hand with the plugs removed. By hand I mean with a socket and ratchet. Not difficult to do.

How far is your battery from your engine? Any runs of cable shouldn't be more than 2 ft or so - 3 at the most. If you are running farther than that I would relocate your batteries

My batteries are under the Cuddy.......about 10ft of wire for both the POS and NEG cables. Is this to far? And if so, why would it be set up this way? It looks proffesional complete with marine switch and battery boxes. I'll shoot some pics and post them up in a minute. I will also get the HD Energizer Battery form wally world. But I need to know if the Batteries should be relocated before I buy more new cable. Should I eliminate the switch? Do I need a dual battery system?

Thanks for all the input.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

It definitely sounds like you have a lot of connections facilitating the distance from battery to engine. Having 10 ft runs from battery to starter etc. is not a big deal yet requires the right gage wire. The longer the run the bigger the wire required. With that distance, any switches etc. facilitating the batteries would also have to be properly rated. Big picture, all "connections" within your setup must be of the best quality.

Given what you have done, and to possibly keep you from spending money where it isn't need, I would ensure your battery is good then "temporarily" locate it within about 4 ft of the engine/starter. Wire/connect it up well and perform a simple "start" test. If it works being close to the engine then you know definitively that your wiring etc. needs to be looked at/adjusted. If it results in the same as you have now, then tear back into the starter etc..

I would know immediately if I could hear it but I would still question your timing. If too far advanced it can crank extremely hard.

Good luck.

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Here is a link to the ground inthe engine bay.......bolted together with a stainless bolt and nut. The cable is 4awg. It shold be 2awg right?


http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/

photo # 1 and #6 show the split ground.....4awg.

photo #7 shows the 10ft run from the front to the starter....... the rest are various shots of the wiring up under the cuddy.


Off to wallyworld for a battery and some cable.

 

[mkast]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Need a password to view.

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

ahhhhhhh this sucs.................lets try this.............


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1836.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1838.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1840.jpg

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

heres a couple more of the boat and the long cable run....about 10ft or so.....

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1835.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1834.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1833.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1841-1.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1837.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c383/picasso928/Boat/DSCF1839.jpg

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Haven't looked at the pics...............but I would suggest measuring the voltage with a digital meter across the battery terminals when trying to start the engine. If the voltage drops directly at the battery it would inditace a bettery problem...........if it doesn't then I would move to the voltage at the starter with respect to the block when trying to crank.........if the voltage drops here then you have a connection problem.

Just my $0.02............I had a similar problem and it turned-out to be the gnd connection on the block...........came out of no where while I was drifting for fluke in the ocean.......went to move and engine wouldn't start.........good thing I had a meter/tool/soandpaper on the boat..........cleaned the connections and it started right up!

 

[tommays]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

it is a bit of a mess and shows a lot of problems with connections and the wrong type of stuff to make the connections

 

[petes penn]

Re: Slow cranking 350....more details inside....

Alright.....so I purchased a few more items......

4ft section 1awg red....+ cable
4ft section 1awg black....- cable
Everstart HD series Batt.....1000/875CCA
Copper terminal ends.

Huge difference.....turning over as it should. Sandpapered the ground connection on the block until it was shiny steel again.

NEW ISSUE........

While cranking, engine spits up through Carb. I don't think this is correct. Whenlooking at the front of the motor, it is turning clockwise. From behind...counter clockwise. Am I in trouble here? I am not sure which rotation I am supposed to have. Block has "346249 GM K6 "on rear and "firing order 18436572" on the top of the intake manifold. Turns over strong.....like it should but it seems to be backfiring throught the carb. No bang just a chuff.....like......

wur-wur-wur-wur-wur-wur-chuff-wur-wur-wur-wur-wur-wur chuff........and so on ..........

forgive my lack of sound effect, but its as close as I could come......

So back to pondering the issues at hand with my new lawn ornament...hahaha