Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

[IGeeky1]

Turn key - loud clunk.
connect starter direct to battery - spin
turn key and jumper to starter concurrently - turns over

I'm assuming the issue is the starter solenoid but I just replaced it, fear I may have gotten wrong one. Also I am not familiar as to starter solenoid/slave solenoid function. Maybe the signal to pass the power across starter solenoid terminals is just not being received by solenoid, I've no idea?


Thanks

Mark

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

sounds more like a dirty connection on the end of a wire which is why using a jumper cable works. Try cleaning all the large connections with sand paper until they are shinny (including the grounds). The cluck is the starter bendix engaging the flywheel then It needs a few hundred amps to make the starter turn, If theres a dirty connection it can not get the amps to the starter so it doesn't turn.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

I have already cleaned all terminals, nuts, washer and connectors with electrical cleaner, a wire brush and elbow grease

Am I correct in assuming if the amount of power just isn't there that this would involve be the main cable from battery positive to starter solenoid. So to test this theory I would connect my jumper to duplicate this cable, yes?

As an aside...what triggers the starter solenoid to make the connection from power in to solenoid, to power across to starter motor? Is it the same action that would throw out the bendix or is it a separate function? In the same realm...what function does a slave solenoid perform?

Thanks

Mark

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

the starter solenoid has a catch that pulls on the bendix lever on one end and on the other end is a copper contact that bridges the power across the 2 bolts supplying power to the starter coils.

The starter solenoid pull more power then you would want to send via the key so the key works the slave which then supplies power the the starter solenoid. If the starter is kicking in and its not turning then its normally the leads are dirty or the solenoid but as you have replaced and cleaned the next step is to check things with a voltmeter.
What is the battery voltage?
what is the battery voltage while cranking?
what is the voltage at the incoming bolt at the starter while cranking?
what is the voltage at the outgoing bolt when cranking?

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

I will check those as soon as I can get back on this, unfortunately it will be a couple days with baseball tournaments upon me. I was ruling out battery as a potential issue due to the jumper being able to get it to run but I see where these reading may help to determine where the current "hold up " is.

I will double check to make sure all wires got hit as well, thinking over things I may have missed cleaning the slave solenoid to ground wire on the ground side.

The neutral safety switch would no be involved since I am at least getting something to the starter solenoid correct? Looks like it would make it so that nothing happened at all to me. Just want to rule it out.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

Theory check, please straighten me out if I'm not correct.

Actual power to the starter is provided from the direct to battery cable.

The slave solenoid provides power to the starter solenoid to throw out bearing and engage bendix as well as position contact washer to make contact between the battery power terminal and the starter motor terminal within the starter solenoid.

Is it possible for the solenoid to receive power and throw out the bearing but yet not make contact to pass the current though to the starter or are these actions one and the same within the starter solenoid?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

it is possible to burn the contacts in a starter solenoid so it can not transfer power. If you did a engine off test and the starter turned then I really do not see that as the problem. Neutral safety switch stops the slave from working thus stops the starter solenoid from working so that's not the problem. Its sounds like a lack of amps being able to reach the starter (that's both positive and negative which is why you check the engine grounds are clean). All the other normal problems like bad battery or bad field coil in the starter would not be fixed by using a jumper cable from the battery to the starter

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

No helper so I couldn't measure voltage while trying to start. battery voltage is 12.68, same at power terminal of starter solenoid and slave solenoid. I checked using ground on engine block and ground at slave solenoid.

Had battery tested today and it registered 565 cca (rated at 550)

Cleaned ground terminals and engine at ground mount. replaced both starter and slave solenoids with Quicksilver parts.

same deal

Turn key or jumper across slave solenoid - loud clunk.
jump across large starter solenoid terminals - spin
jump slave and starter terminals concurrently - turns over

I think I may have burnt out my slave solenoid jumpering across it though, now at ignition switch or jumpering across it just gives a little click instead of a clunk. I can still spin starter by jumping across starter solenoid terminals.

Hoping to have a helper to test voltage at starter side when attempting to crank as well as at yellow wire on slave solenoid.

This is totally baffling me.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

==> If the starter was bad or had poor ground then jumpering across the starter solenoid large terminals would not make it spin. Also shows ample power at starter solenoid terminal.

==> If the the ignition switch, circuit breaker, neutral switch or slave solenoid were bad, the throw out would not occur when turning the ignition switch to start.

==> kinda leaves the starter solenoid of which I've tried two new, one delco, one quicksilver as well as the original.

==> I was thinking maybe the yellow wire going from slave to starter solenoids may be the issue but then I do not believe the throwout would work... correct?

I'm not putting these out to argue, rather to have somebody find the hole in my thinking and maybe give me a new place to look.

Thanks

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

==> If the starter was bad or had poor ground then jumpering across the starter solenoid large terminals would not make it spin. Also shows ample power at starter solenoid terminal.

Jumping from A to C will only run the starters motor, it will not engage the bendix into the ring gear.

If you want to jump the starter to see if it will crank the engine over, jumper from A to B (Yellow/red stripe wire)

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

Thanks Don, I will try that tomorrow (it has to be easier to accomplish than one screwdriver across large slave solenoid terminals and one screwdriver across large starter solenoid terminals at the same time )

...why do I have the funny feeling I will get bendix throw but no starter spin?

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

Thanks Don, I will try that tomorrow (it has to be easier to accomplish than one screwdriver across large slave solenoid terminals and one screwdriver across large starter solenoid terminals at the same time )

...why do I have the funny feeling I will get bendix throw but no starter spin?

Well, if you do, then you have a locked up engine or drive.

Have you tried turning the engine over by hand?

The loud clunk from your original post sounded bad, but then you said turn key and jumper to starter concurrently - turns over now I don't know if that was just the starter or the engine.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

the bendix is engaged and the starter turns the whole engine when I jumper large terminals on both solenoids. So yes the engine turns over. I currently have plugs out and stern drive removed.

The loud clunk is the throwout bearing/bendix being engaged. I said loud clunk to differentiate with the softer click that happens when the slave solenoid engages but nothing else happens.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

to rewrite:

Turn key or jumper across slave solenoid - loud clunk-throwout bearing/bendix is engaged.
jump across large starter solenoid terminals - starter spins
jump slave and starter terminals concurrently - throw out engages and starter spins thus turning engine over

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

my only guess would be a starter that is to close to the flywheel (im not sure if yours has spacers) If the bendix was not allowed to travel out fully then the contacts in the rear of the solenoid that are made when the bendix is fully out might not be able to close But that would not make sense if it had been working and now it does not.

bench testing may be in order with the solenoid removed the large terminals should ohm closed when you push the plunger in on the starter solenoid.

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

Good point Glenn. I so do not want to take this out again but removing it and testing seems like a wise move. If the plate does make the terminals continuous then it would seem the spacing a good place to look.

AND it would make sense with everything except for the fact that I did get the engine to rotate by the starter when I jumpered both solenoids. But maybe there is enough bendix throwout to grab a bit of flywheel teeth and yet not enough to have been out far enough for the washer to make the two terminals continuous.

Either way this sounds like a very good direction to look.

THANK YOU!

 

[IGeeky1]

Re: Starter solenoid or slave solenoid or?

Experience level = neophyte

So the issue was simply that the plunger on the starter would need to be about 1/2" longer for it to properly press the pin in the solenoid. Right now it doesn't make contact at all. I'd been buying solenoids for the starter that was supposed to be in my boat, a 50-99417A 2

The starter that is actually in the boat, a Delco Remy 1998317, apparently it uses a shorter solenoid (distance from base to pin)

Likely will not make this mistake again...now off to try and find a 89-18080.

Thanks everyone