stray current

scoflaw

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I am at a slip with a power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin. It's an old marina and several other towers have the same issue, although some , most work fine. Last year I had an electrician check things out and he told me there's a half a volt of power running through the ground wire. Is there a way to fix this tower or make my boat less sensitive to this condition?
 

alldodge

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Re: stray current

I am at a slip with a power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin. It's an old marina and several other towers have the same issue, although some , most work fine. Last year I had an electrician check things out and he told me there's a half a volt of power running through the ground wire. Is there a way to fix this tower or make my boat less sensitive to this condition?

You need a galvanic isolation transformer between you and the tower. The galvanic isolator installs in your boat in between the ground wire coming in and the ground wire on your boat. Basically cut the ground wire and put the isolator in the ground circuit. Run the additional ground connection to the ground on your boat
 

Thalasso

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Re: stray current

What you need to do is find another marina. Regardless of the isolator, the water around the boats is also hot. The marina is looking at a huge liability suit.


One area required by the 303 standard is an annual check of the ground integrity of the marina ground system. The reason this is so important is that the ground system is your vital link to ensure personal safety in the marina and to prevent fires. If this system is not in good condition, and an electrical fault occurs on a boat, the ground wiring might not be capable of carrying the resulting large fault currents back to the source. It’s these large fault currents which cause circuit protective devices to trip in an instant to prevent electrical shock and fires. Without this ground system intact, fault currents may persist while generating heat at the fault location. In addition faulty ground wiring may cause the voltage on metal casings in the boat to rise creating a shock or electrocution hazard.
 
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UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

I am at a slip with a power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin. It's an old marina and several other towers have the same issue, although some , most work fine. Last year I had an electrician check things out and he told me there's a half a volt of power running through the ground wire. Is there a way to fix this tower or make my boat less sensitive to this condition?

If you are saying that the shore power has faulty grounds, that is a serious issue.
Someone contacting the water between the boats risks electrocution.
The problem needs to be fixed with the shore power, NOT with the boat.
If this is true, it is a public safety issue and the local building department should be notified.

On the other side, 1/2volt is an expected value and not a significant issue and will not trip your Reverse Polarity light. Most are simple Neon Lamps or LEDs with a 25K+ resistor in series and require more than 25 volts to get them to barely glow.

If you have factory installed shore power in a boat less than 20 years old, it already has a ground isolator installed. The hit or miss situation is more likely caused by the the Boat next to you leaking into your Ground and killing your Zincs in the process.
 
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Thalasso

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Re: stray current

If you are saying that the shore power has faulty grounds, that is a serious issue.
Someone contacting the water between the boats risks electrocution.
The problem needs to be fixed with the shore power, NOT with the boat.
If this is true, it is a public safety issue and the local building department should be notified.

On the other side, 1/2volt is an expected value and not a significant issue and will not trip your Reverse Polarity light. Most are simple Neon Lamps or LEDs with a 25K+ resistor in series and require more than 25 volts to get them to barely glow.

If you have factory installed shore power in a boat less than 20 years old, it already has a ground isolator installed. The hit or miss situation is more likely caused by the the Boat next to you leaking into your Ground and killing you Zincs in the process.


^^^2
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

If you are saying that the shore power has faulty grounds, that is a serious issue.
Someone contacting the water between the boats risks electrocution.
The problem needs to be fixed with the shore power, NOT with the boat.
If this is true, it is a public safety issue and the local building department should be notified.

On the other side, 1/2volt is an expected value and not a significant issue and will not trip your Reverse Polarity light. Most are simple Neon Lamps or LEDs with a 25K+ resistor in series and require more than 25 volts to get them to barely glow.

If you have factory installed shore power in a boat less than 20 years old, it already has a ground isolator installed. The hit or miss situation is more likely caused by the the Boat next to you leaking into your Ground and killing your Zincs in the process.

The odd twist to this is that each tower has power for 2 slips, if I plug into the opposite side of my tower I'm good. With the length of my power cord I can reach about 8 of these outlets and about half work for me, problem is when the marina fills up in the summer my choices dwindle. Another boater has the same issue and he tells me the power is more stable at the beginning of the dock and I'm at the end of it. I have no issues when I'm plugged in at my home. Also my zincs don't wear abnormally fast. Could there be something I could do to my boat to make it less sensitive to this?
 

alldodge

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Re: stray current

Contact the sate and voice your concerns. They are required to investigate safety issues. May want to make sure to keep your name out of it so you can still use the marina afterwards

Massachusetts Environmental Police
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

Contact the sate and voice your concerns. They are required to investigate safety issues. May want to make sure to keep your name out of it so you can still use the marina afterwards

Massachusetts Environmental Police

I want to be absolutely positive this is a safety issue before I dime anyone. Most boats at this marina don't have reverse polarity swiches and don't have a problem. Why are some terminals fine others not? Could the issue be my boat?
 

UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

I want to be absolutely positive this is a safety issue before I dime anyone. Most boats at this marina don't have reverse polarity switches and don't have a problem. Why are some terminals fine others not? Could the issue be my boat?

If the same boat has different results at different power pedestals; the pedestals are the variables.

What does, "...A power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin", mean?
Are you popping circuit breakers? GFCIs?

You may have shore power pedestals that are actually wired with reverse polarity!
Do you need instructions on how to test them?
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

If the same boat has different results at different power pedestals; the pedestals are the variables.

What does, "...A power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin", mean?
Are you popping circuit breakers? GFCIs?

You may have shore power pedestals that are actually wired with reverse polarity!
Do you need instructions on how to test them?

Not popping breakers, they are wired correctly, and they sometimes work. They more things I power up the quicker the reverse polarity light comes on and shuts it down. The electrician I hired was the one that told me about the .5 volts in the ground wire. Would really like to make my boat less sensitive if that's possible.
 

UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

Not popping breakers, they are wired correctly, and they sometimes work. They more things I power up the quicker the reverse polarity light comes on and shuts it down...

We are having a communications problem here... :) :confused:

"They sometimes work"; The breakers sometimes Trip, or sometime do not Trip?

"The reverse polarity light comes on and shuts it down."; What gets shut down? Breakers tripping?

Sorry, but I am trying to understand the problem in detail.
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

We are having a communications problem here... :) :confused:

"They sometimes work"; The breakers sometimes Trip, or sometime do not Trip?

"The reverse polarity light comes on and shuts it down."; What gets shut down? Breakers tripping?

Sorry, but I am trying to understand the problem in detail.

Breakers never trip

The boats electrical system shuts down with the reverse polarity light lit.
 

UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

Not popping breakers, they are wired correctly, and they sometimes work. They more things I power up the quicker the reverse polarity light comes on and shuts it down...

... The boats electrical system shuts down with the reverse polarity light lit.

Please excuse what is probably starting to sound like you are talking to an idiot (Me) !!! ....

What you are saying that is that when you plug in to Shore Power with no 120vAC devices turned ON, The Shore Power appears to act normal. ?? 120vAC is available with NO Reverse polarity light illuminated.

As you turn ON more AC Devices you eventually reach a point where the Reverse Polarity light come ON and the 120vAC Power suddenly disappears from the devices that were being powered a few seconds ago, but no breakers Trip. ?? Is that a good explanation?

Do you have a Volt Meter?
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

Please excuse what is probably starting to sound like you are talking to an idiot (Me) !!! ....

What you are saying that is that when you plug in to Shore Power with no 120vAC devices turned ON, The Shore Power appears to act normal. ?? 120vAC is available with NO Reverse polarity light illuminated.

As you turn ON more AC Devices you eventually reach a point where the Reverse Polarity light come ON and the 120vAC Power suddenly disappears from the devices that were being powered a few seconds ago, but no breakers Trip. ?? Is that a good explanation?

Do you have a Volt Meter?

Yes and yes. If you could give me a brief explanation how the reverse polarity feature in my boat works, how much voltage it takes to trigger it and how it shuts my boat down without tripping any breakers on my boat I would appreciate it. Thanks Mike
 

alldodge

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Re: stray current

I am at a slip with a power tower that will shut my boat down and trigger a reverse polarity light in my cabin. It's an old marina and several other towers have the same issue, although some , most work fine. Last year I had an electrician check things out and he told me there's a half a volt of power running through the ground wire. Is there a way to fix this tower or make my boat less sensitive to this condition?

An electrician found 1/2 volt on the ground, this should not be found.

I want to be absolutely positive this is a safety issue before I dime anyone. Most boats at this marina don't have reverse polarity swiches and don't have a problem. Why are some terminals fine others not? Could the issue be my boat?

Most boast do not have RPI's, if a boat does not have one, they don't know if they have an issue or not. Understand dropping a dime, but you do not have to come across as that. The issue, you could ask simply that your concerned and would like to know if the issue is with your boat or the marina. Explain what you have found.

Yes and yes. If you could give me a brief explanation how the reverse polarity feature in my boat works, how much voltage it takes to trigger it and how it shuts my boat down without tripping any breakers on my boat I would appreciate it. Thanks Mike

The link below goes into detail and is very informative, Instead of shorting the answer I suggest reading through GordMay's explanation
Reverse Polarity (AC) - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

The 1/2 volt is a bad thing, this should not happen, but there could also be an issue of the size wire feeding all the towers is not sufficient.
 

Thalasso

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Re: stray current

What you have when some pedestals are ok and some not, There is a wiring problem in the pedestal. This will get someone shocked and maybe killed if in the water.When polarity is incorrect or reversed, it is because the hot and neutral wires are switched.
Reverse polarity is an indication that either your boat or the marina has been improperly wired. Hot is on the neutral.
AC electrical lights and appliances don't care which direction the current is flowing, they work fine either way.
When polarity is reversed it means that electric current is coming in the back door (neutral wire) of the circuit instead of the front (hot wire). You may have closed the front door to keep electricity out of the "house," so to speak, but in reality, the "house" is still full of electricity coming from the opposite direction. This greatly enhances the possibility for an electric shock or fire; and makes it impossible to isolate the individual branch circuits labeled on your electrical panel.


Whether you’re using shore power or not, or the breakers at the dock box or on your boat are on or off, if the shore power cable is physically connected, so is the safety ground running through it. The safety ground performs a very important function on board your boat. So important in fact, that the ABYC requires it be there to minimize the possibility of electrocution. Also on board your vessel, the AC safety ground and the DC ground/bonding system should be connected (also an ABYC safety requirement). Effectively the sea water around your boat, the bonding system/DC ground, and the AC safety ground are all electrically connected. Probably more than you wanted to know

What does this mean to you and your boat? As soon as your boat is connected to shore power, it is also connected to the dock and all of the other boats around you. Your boat is now part of a larger electrical system (Galvanic cell).


Alternating Current/Reverse Polarity

Since alternating current, by definition, flows in one direction then the other, what is meant by polarity when applied to an AC shorepower connection and why is polarity so important on a boat? Even though the current flow reverses, the "hot" wire is connected to the generator at the power plant and the "neutral" wire is connected to ground there. That means the electricity flows to us through the hot wire. All switches and circuit breakers must be in this side of the circuit to disconnect the load from the power.

Now suppose connections to the dockside receptacle are reversed. That puts all the AC breakers on the boat in the neutral side of the circuit. An overload might still trip the breaker, but since the breaker is in the neutral side, the circuit is unprotected from a short. Current will continue to flow until the circuit burns open. A fire aboard is the likely consequence.

Reversed polarity also presents a serious shock risk. Turning off a breaker appears to remove power from the circuit because it turns off all appliances connected to that circuit. But with reversed polarity you have disconnected the appliance from ground, not from power. The circuit is stll live!

If your AC switch panel does not have a polarity tester, buy a plug-in tester and use it. Most also detect an open grounding wire and other dangerous conditions.
 
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UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

Yes and yes. If you could give me a brief explanation how the reverse polarity feature in my boat works, how much voltage it takes to trigger it and how it shuts my boat down without tripping any breakers on my boat I would appreciate it. Thanks Mike

Those questions are excellent and are the reason I sound dumbfounded.
This is going to be a long read, but worth the effort if your inquiring mind needs to know! :)

First understand that the Common(White) and the Ground(Green) wires are connected together at the ground point of the power panel. In your case this is likely a few hundred feet away in a large Circuit Breaker Panel inside of the Marina and completely out of sight, and also out of your reach.

In theory the White and Ground will both be at Zero Volts ground potential. No difference between them.
The Hot(Black) wire carries the Current out the the boat and the Common(White) returns the current to the Panel.
In reality there is always some voltage dropped on these wire because although they are good conductors, they are not perfect conductors.

You will notice that when a large load like an air-conditioner turns ON, that the lights in the area commonly dim slightly.
This is due to the voltage drop across the power (Blk+Wht) wires.
If you measured the AC Voltage on the boat you may find that the 120 volts now read 116 volt. Normal and not a big deal.
Where did the other 4 volts go? 2 volts were lost/dropped on each of the power(Blk/Wht) wires.
If measured from the Ground(Grn) wire you would find the Black Wire now at 118(120-2) Volts and the White wire at 2(0+2) Volts. The difference between the Black(118) and the White(2) is the 118-2=116 volts that the devices on the boat now see.
Notice that the Common(Wht) wire now shows an actual voltage relative to the Ground(Grn) wire. Completely Normal.
When your electrician stated that the Ground on the boat had 1/2 volt, the next question to ask would have been, "1/2 volt Relative to What?"

I told you all that so I could tell you this.....

Normally the Common(Wht) and the Ground(Grn) wire are at, or very near, the same voltage (Zero).
The Reverse Polarity Indicator(RPI) Lamp is connected between these two wires in your power panel on the boat, and normally will see a difference of Zero to a few volts at the most. the RPI will not illuminate under most normal conditions. If it is an LED type Lamp you might see it glowing very dimly under very dark conditions if you are using a lot of power. Again Normal.

Now something Stupid happens.
The Connectors on the Power Pedestals get corroded and the Marina tells their local handyman to replace the Bad ones. He messes up and gets his wire crossed. Now the Common(White) Wire on your boat gets supplied with the 120 volts and your Hot(Blk) wire becomes the Zero Volt Return wire to the panel.

Surprisingly, nothing dramatic happens. The lights and air conditioning keep working as usual and no one complains much.
HOWEVER... The White wire with the 120 volts now supplies full voltage to that RPI lamp and it glows at full brightness warning of the Reverse Polarity Condition. Ground is still at Zero.

The Danger now is that the Breakers are all in the Hot(Blk) Wires, But now the power is in the Formerly Common Wires. Normally shorting a Common wire out to ground has little effect, But now you will have a full power short to ground. A Big fireball ensues and because the breakers are not seeing the over-current, the short continues until the wires melt and everything else catches fire. A very bad day follows!

Notice that nothing in all of this reverse polarity condition did anything to shut down anything on the boat or anywhere else.
There is No Reverse Polarity Switch that shuts off the power, Only a light that warns of the problem.
This is the part that is so confusing!!! :confused:
 
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scoflaw

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Re: stray current

Thank you all for the info. the part that is confusing is Uncle Willy's last statement. The RP light doesn't shut the power off. OK then what is shutting my boat off without any breakers being tripped and the RP light shineing brightly?
 

UncleWillie

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Re: stray current

Thank you all for the info. the part that is confusing is Uncle Willy's last statement. The RP light doesn't shut the power off. OK then, what is shutting my boat off without any breakers being tripped and the RP light shining brightly?

Agree!!
This is the part that is the mystery!! You are loosing power somewhere. :confused:
It could be solved if you have a volt meter and the willingness to do some testing and make a group of measurements.

Are you equipped with a meter, and up to the exercise?
 

scoflaw

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Re: stray current

Got a DVM although not the best 1. Maybe you can suggest a better 1 I can pick up ? Also contacted my buddy the town electrical inspector and he is going over there today to investigate. Drove by the marina yesterday and noticed wiring hanging in the water half way to the slip that was giving me issues last year. My boat is still in my driveway and I'm not forking over my cash to the marina if this is their unresolved problem. Marina opens May 1st, so have no way of testing until I get there. Work perfect in my yard so that's not going to help.
 
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