Stuck Mercruiser 330

[Jack Rose]

Hey Guys, this is a follow up to a post from a few weeks back (http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=258271). I'm beginning to fear that some of your fears were well-founded.

So, I've got a "new" 1980 Mercruiser 330. It appears to have few, if any, hours on it. On you guys' advice, I've squirted Marvel Mystery oil into each cylinder through the spark plug ports. And I've removed the distributor and oiled the engine using a drill and an oil pump primer (three times for about 30 seconds each) and it appeared to be working well.

So, leaving the plugs out, I took the alternator and water pump belts off, and made sure that the transmission was in neutral, and with high hopes I attempted to turn the crank using the nut on the main pulley ... and no go. Not a budge, not even a little bit. I had to stop for fear of snapping the nut.

So, now I'm giving the Marvel Mystery Oil time to work its wonders, while "we" figure this thing out.

So, here are my questions:
1. Is there something really obvious that I may be missing? The only other thing that I can come up with, beyond stuck rings or valves, is the possibility that the starter gear is jammed against the flywheel, but that seems like a long shot.
2. So, just how much Marvel Mystery Oil (I've also heard suggested transmission fluid and fogging oil) am I supposed to be pouring into the cylinders? I've been using a large hypodermic needle and, so far, have only squirted about an ounce into each.
3. I suspect that I shouldn't be using the nut on the crankshaft pulley for fear of snapping it, so should I take the pulley off and use whatever is behind that? Is there a flat behind there that I can get a wrench on?
4. I'm tempted to try using the starter motor to turn it, but had a bad experience trying that with a tractor engine, and feel like I need to turn it by hand, first. That right?
5. So, if it is a stuck ring or more, what's involved? Pull the heads?
6. You guys have said that this is a clock-wise engine, that the distributor and oil pump should turn clock-wise as well as the crank. Well, I'm sure this has been asked a 1000 times but I've forgotten it each time, so on a clock-wise engine, the crankshaft turns clock-wise from where, looking at it from the front or the rear?
7. One more thing, should the oil pressure gauge be working when I use the oil pump primer? It's not. However, I also don't have a battery in this boat (which is probably good, or I'd be tempted to use it), so maybe the gauge doesn't work w/o electrical current. That possible?

By the way, there's no evidence of water being anywhere that it shouldn't be (crankcase, cylinders, dipstick, etc.).

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm sure there'll be more as I progress through this.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Jack

 

[BAYLINER185]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

The only thing I know for sure is that the oil pressure gauge WONT work with no power to the systems senders / sensors and gauges so your right yours is not working as you have no battery.

I have read SEVERAL posts here about turning a motor by hand and as long as your on the crank shaft nut you should be able to turn the motor by hand ( with a wrench ) I personally HAVE NEVER tried this and I assume its not very easy to do even with a good engine....Ie take my 454 in my cruiser that I just ran last night and pull plugs and try to turn with a BIG socket wrench. I don?t think it would be an easy thing to do but never the less I do think it would try to turn.


I DONT think you need to go through all the trouble to take the pulley off.. NOW I did read a post that a guy thought he was on the crank shaft pulley BUT turns out he wasn?t and the motor wouldn?t turn. MAKE sure you are on the crank shaft pulley / nut and see what happens.

The amount of oil you have injected I believe is just about right, I think at this point even a little more wont really hurt you just that when and if you ever get the motor started it may just smoke for the 1st few seconds of running.

I believe looking at the crank shaft from the front of the engine the direction is clock wise.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

With the spark plugs removed, and all the belt driven accessories taken out of play you should be able to turn the engine over using the crank bolt.(I have done this myself in the past) You may want to pull the OD in case there are issues there.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Clockwise, as you're facing the engine is normal rotation on an I/O, I'm guessing yours is the same but not positive with an inboard? I would try adding some trans fluid to the cylinders, at least (2 ounces in each one), this maybe more (cutting, penetrating) then MMO, and let it sit for awhile again. If it was only the starter gear stuck to the flywheel, and you turned the crank backwards a skosh, it would normally release itself.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

With the transmission in neutral and the plugs out it should turn over EASILY by hand. If it's been sitting up for a while (without being properly pickled) around any type of moisture or humidity, I would bet it's got at least a couple of sets of rings rusted to the cylinder walls.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Ayuh,....

In all Honesty,..... Quit fartin' around,+ Pull the Motor......

Unless the Transmission is Siezed,.... That motor Surely Is,.....
And,......
You'll never figure out Why, til it's on a stand,+ Torn Down......

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

That ^^^^ may be your best course of action.................

 

[Jack Rose]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

No easy answers, huh? I sure don't want to pull that engine, though. It's a beast.

I guess I'll keep giving it the mystery oil treatment over the next few days, hoping for a miracle, then look at getting more serious this weekend.

Might need to call in the brother-in-law for this one.

Thanks again,

Jack

 

[J JACKSON]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

before you pull the engine pull the outdrive and try it (you need to pull it to remove the motor anyway) you could have a problem with the outdrive being locked up

 

[MikDee]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

before you pull the engine pull the outdrive and try it (you need to pull it to remove the motor anyway) you could have a problem with the outdrive being locked up

I made the same mistake earlier JJ, it's an inboard.

By the way, Jack I had bought a boat with the same problem many yrs ago, again everything was pristine, but the engine was siezed. Not to say Marvel oil isn't good, But I had a combination of Marvel oil, and Penetrating oil, in it for weeks, and it didn't free it up. Thats why I suggested tranny fluid, it might be a bit better? Since then, I've also heard vinegar might be best, but I don't know for sure?

I wasn't so lucky, it was a 250 cu. in./165hp mercruiser 6cyl. that I had to rebuild! everything inside looked almost like new, but apparently just a little salt water got in some how, I think it was inversion through the exhaust manifold, and 2, or 3 rear pistons were frozen in their bore, so bad I had to drive them out with a hammer, & block of wood, and replace them. There was hardly any carbon build up on them, nor any ridge on the block, even the original crosshatching was on the bores! But I had to rehone the cylinders, to get a few corrosion spots out of them. The rebuild was great though, as it turned out, the engine ran like a top after that.

 

[Jack Rose]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Hey thanks. I'm still hoping for a miracle, and I'm in no hurry.

I started out with PB Blaster thinking that it would be a better penetrating oil than MMO, then progressed to MMO. Sounds like transmission fluid is next. And I might try PepBoys' advice on fogging oil since it's an aerosol.

I've also noticed on other threads folks recommending putting the the oil in, then pressurizing the cylinders with a compressor to force it by the rings. Sounds worth a try. Better than watching TV, anyway.

Also, if you look around this forum enough, and I'm not making this up, you can find one guy's recommendation to use Coca Cola, as it's supposed to eat rust (carbonic acid, maybe?). Sounds like a sticky mess, though. Maybe I should go with diet Coke. Your vinegar advice would be along those lines as a mild acid, but less messy.

And speaking of sticky messes, another person swears by maple syrup. Again, I'm not making this up, search it out.

I think I'll stay away from the foodstuffs, though, and stick with petroleum products, until I get tired of climbing in there, and finally have to follow Bond-o's advice and just pull the engine.

Thanks for all your help,

Jack

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Looking at this another way: If the engine is seized so badly that only a combination of obscure petroleum products applied over weeks will free it up, do you really want to just run it after that and hope for the best? It could have cracked or split rings, rotted seals, or other problems by the time you get it to turn freely. It's not going to be "ready to run" just because it turns over, and you may do more damage trying to get it to spin. And if when it spins it fails a compression test you'll end up pulling it apart anyway.

What you really need to do is pull the engine, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. You're just fooling yourself and you're just wasting time and money.

Pull the engine and take it apart.

Erik

 

[MikDee]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Now thats a refreshingly optomistic attitude anyway!
But, I wouldn't bother with fogging oil, it's made to coat, & protect, not penetrate. PB blaster would be a good idea, if you could pour enough of it in there,,, Besides due to the friggin EPA regs. they've taken all the best stuff out of all the penetrating oils on the market! Years ago if you put "Liquid Wrench" on a rusted bolt, it disolved ALL the rust, even if you had no bolt left afterward!

 

[Jack Rose]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

What you really need to do is pull the engine, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. You're just fooling yourself and you're just wasting time and money.

Thanks. I tried to imply that that's my plan. However, I have lots of time to waste, and a can or two of PB Blaster isn't really all that expensive, nor obscure. Around here we can probably get it at Kroger, or at least at WalMart.

So, far I've only had two sessions with it, and I figure that at least one more is warranted. Being fairly new to this marine engine business, I was just trying to see if there is any cause or remedy that I might have missed. Apparently not.

However, when things cool off around here, eight weeks or so, I'll probably have to follow your advice.

Meanwhile, if I can do something that might prevent me from having to lift a 700-800 lb hunk of metal eight feet in the air (the boat sits on its original shipping frame that's on a trailer in the driveway), I'll do that, too.

Jack

 

[hard-3]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Why dont you just quit messin around with free all methods and pull the heads off and take a look . I have seen a lot of stuck engines over the years, but most needed honing to clean up cylinder bores. Every cylinder that had an open valve can be corroded. I once pulled apart a Detroit that had a dirt dobber nest in the cylinder. If you just want to hear it run then keep puttin release oils in sparkplug holes. Side bar - I once had a buddy that was building a race engine in the pole barn metal garage that was afraid the bottem end was going to rust while his milidon oil pan was backordered, so he sprayed a whole can of John Crane free all on the crank, rods piston pins ect that you could see from the oil pan. put the pan on and left it sitting on the stand for 2 weeks. 2 weeks later it would not turn a bit the "free all" had washed all of the oil from the piston pins and siezed the full floating pins to the pistons . broke 2 pistons trying to press the full floating pins out just shows that any corrosive can really mess things up quick

 

[Bondo]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Meanwhile, if I can do something that might prevent me from having to lift a 700-800 lb hunk of metal eight feet in the air (the boat sits on its original shipping frame that's on a trailer in the driveway), I'll do that, too.

Ayuh,....

You can Easily lighten that load by atleast 1/2,......Probably More....

I'd Start by removing the Transmission,... just to see if the motor is Frozen,..?? At All,....??
You Still have No Idea exactly What's Stuck,+ Where......It can Still be the Tranny.....

 

[Jack Rose]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Hey, I'm pretty new to this, so simply pulling the engine or even pulling the heads off doesn't sound so simple to me.

I've done that successfully with everything from .019 model airplane engines when I was a kid, to lawnmower engines, to my '72 VW Beetle and my '58 10 HP Mercury, and I'm willing to make the leap to doing it with this Mercruiser, but I keep hoping that brainstorming will prevent my having to. And I appreciate you guys' patience on that.

So, a couple more things.

Bond-o, you mentioned that the transmission could be stuck. It (velvet drive) shifts easily and I can hear it clicking from forward to neutral to reverse. So, is it possible that even though I have it in neutral, it could still be preventing the engine from turning? I'd much rather remove the transmission from the engine than the engine from the boat. Of course, I'll have to do the former, anyway, before doing the latter.

And Bubba, thanks for the compressor idea. I had read about using it to force the lubricant through the rings but hadn't considered that I could use it to turn the engine.

I appreciate you guys' patience and ideas. And I promise to give it a go again, tomorrow. Hopefully, I can eliminate some possibilities.

Jack

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Yes, it's possible for the tranny to be stuck, even if it "shifts".

The compressed air idea is a really good one, and it really works. If you can't get it free with compressed air, it's probably not going to free up.

The Coca Cola thing works too. Had a buddy who's family reconditions oil field valves, and he told me they used coca cola for rust removal.

I thought I'd give it a try one time, and decided to dip a couple of dirty and rusty heads in a cooler filled with Coca Cola. Let it sit for about 4 hours. Came back, and the heads were PERFECTLY clean. Like they'd been hot-tanked several times.

No rust, no grease, no carbon. It was all gone!

I've been a believer ever since.

Just be sure to clean all the coke out of the cylinders before you fire it up, or you may end up caramelizing the cylinders with the sugar... Don't know if diet coke works the same as regular...

 

[NeveGuru]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Here's something that worked for me on a Mercruiser 4.3. There are 4 bolts on the harmonic balancer. 3 around the perimeter, and 1 on the inside. I bought a harmonic balance puller, put a grade 8 bolt, I believe it was a 1/2", through the center backwards so the nuts were toward me. I bolted it to the balance using grade 8 bolts and put 2 nuts on the center bolt. This allowed me to put some extreme pressure on the crankshaft without having to worry about snapping the engine's center bolt. Using 2 nuts also gave me a very large surface to grab on to so I didn't have to worry about stripping the nuts. You will also need a bunch of washers, and you may want to put an open end wrench under the unit to keep the center bolt from turning. I used a breaker bar and a 5' aluminum fence pole and cranked away. This, I must mention, is after using MMO, PB, WD-40, and everything else with initials. I actually managed to break 3 bolts while trying to get things going, but I did get it to spin. I'm now in the process of pulling the engine to do a rebuild. No pressure in 2 of the cylinders during a leak down test. In fact, I could put 100PSI in the cylinders and still turn the engine over by hand...

Anyway, I hope this helps. If you want, I'll post some pics up here.

 

[Jack Rose]

Re: Stuck Mercruiser 330

Hey, sorry for the delayed response.

So, can someone explain how this can be (Yes, it's possible for the tranny to be stuck, even if it "shifts"). I've been assuming that if I had the transmission in neutral (this is an inboard, Velvet drive, not a I/O) that it wouldn't be the source of my engine locking up.

If that's the case, shouldn't I be able to tell that the transmission is locked up by the prop not turning even when it's in neutral?

If that's a possibility, then I'll have to remove the transmission to eliminate it's being the cause of my problem. That right? I know you guys had suggested that, but I thought that was tied to the I/O misunderstanding.

And NeveGuru, thanks for the idea. I may have to give that a try.

Jack Rose