Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

[Ski Bob]

Hello. I have a 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon with a 4.3 Cobra engine. I am winterizing it and get conflicting opinions on the fuel. One tech says fill the tank with gas and stablilizer. The company that services my 650 Holly carb says absolutely not. He says store boat with NO fuel or as little as possible. He is anti stablilizer and anti Sea Foam. So, old school, can I slide a little hose down the fuel fill cap and syphone the fuel off or is there an anti syphone screen in this thing too? thank you for your help.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Leaving gas in the tank vs leaving the carburetor wet are two different things. Empty gas tanks condense moisture. Full carbs corrode with ethanol. I'd say, leave the tank full, stabilize it and put a shut off valve on the line to the carb and run it dry before you store it.

Either that or fill it all up with stabilized non ethanol gas.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[Ski Bob]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

I do loosen the screws to the float bowl and drain out the carb completely when I shut down for season. This was the advice from the company that re-built my carb twice in the 22 years I've owned the boat. Thanks for the advice.

 

[bonzoscott]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

I don't know about a Holley carb and why the company would not recommend stabilizer. Could it be that it is what brings you back to them? When you drain the carb or try and run it empty, there is always a bit left in there (maybe a teaspoon). That portion is what turns to varnish, then in the spring when you fire it up, it has problems. I've always used stabilizer and never had a problem (30 years). I have to ask: why did your carb need rebuilt? Again, I'm not that familiar with Holleys.

 

[Ski Bob]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Plugged needle and seat I assume. I am no expert either but the company that has rebuilt it twice is pretty well respected in the car racing community here in Minnesota. He does a lot of performance stuf and is real anti Sea Foam for sure and in his opinion, drain the float bowl, keep little fuel in tank and then fill it in spring. However, in your defense, boat was NOT run last year so it sat out a season and has run like crap all season. I was blaming plugs? Carb again? It starts hard and sputters a lot until real warm.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

I think all you have to do is put in enough marine Stabil and run it so it gets through the carb.thats what I've done for years and not had problem with the boat or the 9 other small engines I have around the house.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Empty gas tanks condense moisture.

Not according to this guy. The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks by David Pascoe: Boat Maintenance, Repairs and Troubleshooting and because I have actually studied physics and thermodynamics I understand his explanation.

And I have done exactly the same thing (left my tank either empty or 1/4 or less [EACH YEAR] for more than 20 years and have NEVER gotten condensation. (never gotten it in an aircraft fuel tank either and THEY are far more exposed to temp swings than any marine fuel tank) AND I have never in all those years used Stabil or any other fuel "stabilizer"

There is no fuel snake oil that will prevent water from collecting in your fuel tank (see the article above for possible sources of fuel tank water)

The only sure way to siphon fuel (and other contamination) out of your tank is to remove the gage sending unit and use a hose. I use a clear vinyl 3/4" hose (Home Depot or other hardware store)

Since most boats have a fitting at the tank for the fuel-fill hose, the sharp bends and fitting can frequently prevent you from being able to get a hose to the bottom of the tank to effectively siphon the fuel And you cannot move the hose around to the corners etc to get the other "stuff" in there (if present)

I use a length of hose long enough with a 1 or 2 ft long piece of plastic PVC pipe on the end to use as a vacuum "nozzle-end" to move around in the tank to get all the debris.

At the fuel receptacle end of the hose (on the floor), I connect a 3/4" ball valve so the helper can close the valve to switch to an empty fuel receptacle without spilling or losing the siphon. Closing the valve at bottom of the siphon, you can fill the hose completely before starting the siphon (and not have to use your mouth!! [DON'T DO THAT!!!])


DO ALL THIS OUTSIDE away from the garage/house! and WITH PLENTY OF VENTILATION! Have a (Dry Chem/Halon) fire extinguisher handy............and of course, NO SMOKING!

If you're going to pickle the engine and leave it for more than a year or so, you should probably run the carb dry. I have actually let my boat sit for 2 full years with an empty tank without draining the carb, and just filled the tank, replaced the filter and had no problems getting it running once the fuel system was primed.

Otherwise for normal storage run out or drain out as much fuel as you can (1/4 or less tank) , park the boat in FALL, and in Spring, just fill the tank, replace the filter and get it running with the new fresh fuel and go boating!

The biggest problem with old fuel is the loss of the "higher-end" hydrocarbons due to evaporation.

NO FUEL SNAKE OIL CAN PREVENT THIS........ the only way to prevent it is to pressurize the tank. (Have you ever noticed the hissing sound when you remove the fuel cap on your car?) Boats do not have pressurized tanks (yet!!!!)

The BEST way to mitigate old fuel (loss of vapor pressure) is to dilute it with as much fresh fuel as practical.

boat was NOT run last year so it sat out a season and has run like crap all season. I was blaming plugs? Carb again? It starts hard and sputters a lot until real warm.

You might want to check your fuel tank pickup & screen, anti-sphon check valve, filter, pump and automatic choke. As a last resort, you might also check your carb fuel bowl. You may STILL have contamination.



ymmv,



Rick

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

My boat sits outside, under a canopy, all winter long. With the amount of condensation I see on my engine, in my forward compartment (if left closed) and on the vinyl seats and inside windshield, you cannot convince me that significant air space in a partially empty gas tank would not get some too.

This is not to mention that ethanol will suck moisture out of the humidity in the air.

 

[Ski Bob]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Ok, because I got so much great advice, I decided to spend a few minutes on the phone with a performance carb builder for race cars. I know they aren't boats, but a carb is a carb. He stands by NOT filling the tank and NOT using stablizer. He said if anything, put in Marvel Mystery Oil as recommended in the tank all the time and for sure when storing off season. As well, I have for five years loosened the four screws to the float bowl, (holley carb) so as to drain out the gas in the carb. So, for the record, I drain ALL water as in the manual, change gear oil, engine oil and for sure briefly turn over engine to blow water from impeller and by the stat. I even shoot a little air into the block passages and hoses I disconnected. Experts say SKIP the RV antifreeze. It makes you trust the mix and it is not safe. Oh, I do shoot a little fog into the carb as it is briefly started to put a little bit of protection on the cylinder walls. I never use SeaFoam. Carb guy says it's the best way to plug a carb and or injectors. So, I will toss in new spark plugs next season and see if all is well. But this Sunday, back on the water for Minnesota fall colors on the lake. Thank you all and have a wonderful winter. Bob

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

With the amount of condensation I see on my engine, in my forward compartment (if left closed) and on the vinyl seats and inside windshield, you cannot convince me that significant air space in a partially empty gas tank would not get some too.

Sorry for the thread hijack..... but this is a common misconception about the mechanism of condensation.

Water condenses on the surface of your engine, seats, deck, can of Coors etc, because the item is cold soaked and there's a fair amount of moisture in the the ambient air.

That air though is NOT the same moisture laden air that's inside your fuel tank. Since there's always a small amount of gasoline in the tank, the tank is always completely FULL of gasoline vapor (which is heavier than air, even humid [100%] air) so very little if any actual moist air can make it into the tank.

And if you read Pascoe's article, depending on the temp, the small amount of air that actually does get into the tank (when it's cold) cannot hold much water to begin with.

I have seen Aircraft wings "sweat" or "frost" profusely! operate at 39,000 ft for a couple of hours and get the fuel temp to -30F or so and you have a LOT of frost on the outside of the wings (top and bottom) where the fuel touches the inner side of the skin. The amount is directly related to the humidity.
If it's raining, it will freeze on the outer surface of the wings if they're cold enough. The fuel tanks are vented but the frost doesn't happen inside the tanks.

He said if anything, put in Marvel Mystery Oil as recommended in the tank all the time and for sure when storing off season.

I am not sure what he thinks 74% Stoddard Solvent, 25% mineral oil and 1% lard does in a fuel tank.......... but people have been suggesting using MMO for just about everything for years..... Some have even suggested using it in aircraft oil and fuel too....... But they risk the wrath of the FAA. (and an engine failure)

I have never been a fan of snake oils or Mechanic-In-A-can products. They usually don't do much of anything other than increase the profits of the people that sell them....... (That doesn't mean I haven't tried them. I have. It's just that I couldn't see any benefit)

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Ahhhh --- the laws of physics. Good science -- most of the time. However I've seen a half quart of water drawn from a small plane fuel tank (in Colorado). So much for condensation not making it into the tank. Marine fuel systems breath and all you need to do is look at the expansion and contraction of your plastic yard equipment fuel can going from warm to cool temps. Blows up like a balloon when hot and sucks the sides in when cool. If vented a fuel tank will breath. Automotive systems today are pressure-vacuum systems so are not vented in the traditional sense. Having done more carb rebuilds than the average Joe, I have never seen one with a rotted fuel bowl. I have seen mid 80's carbs as well as yard tools that had sugar looking deposits in the bowl but that was disintegration of the coating used as a sealer. Non ethanol tolerant materials like older fuel lines would fall apart over tiime when ethanol came on the scene. But then we no longer see bell bottom trousers either so times change. Once cleaned the carb worked fine. Early on with the introduction of ethanol blended fuel there was a spat of plugged fuel filter and related issues. Since ethanol is an excellent fuel system cleaner it did its job nicely and after replacing a fuel filter or two the issue never returned. So what's to blame. Lack of fuel system maintenance and cleaners in "old" fuel or ethanol. Today, any fuel system issue tends to get blamed on ethanol when it is very likely not the cause at all but consumers have been led to think their "mechanic" knows best when that is not likely the case either. But by golly even E-85 hasn't bothered my corn burner and in fact I know a fellow that has run E-85 in an old Ford Ranger pickup that is definitely not a flex-fuel vehicle with no issues. As for snake oils -- there are snake oils and then their are products that work. Sea Foam and Stabil happen to be two of them that work. There is also a difference between a mechanic in a can and preventive maintenance. Very few liquid products can actually fix anything but lots of them try. There are lots of products that qualify as a preventive measure which keeps problems from happening. Kind of unrelated but then again there are stories that ethanol blended fuel goes bad in just a few weeks. Turns out I just bought a 1944 Allis Chalmers Model C farm tractor. Had not been run in three years. Guess what -- installed a good battery and it fired up just fine on the gas in the tank. Over many decades my collector cars, yard equipment and marine stuff get parked at the end of the season after the fuel systems are treated with (oh my gosh) Sea Foam. Fuel tanks have whatever amount of fuel they contain at the time of storage. Those engines all pop off just fine when needed whether stored in a warm environment or in an unheated shed. That's my story -- but do whatever lights your fire. Fact is though, many folks spend way too much time worrying about fuel and fuel systems.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

Ahhhh --- the laws of physics. Good science -- most of the time. However I've seen a half quart of water drawn from a small plane fuel tank (in Colorado). So much for condensation not making it into the tank. Marine fuel systems breath

I have only worked on airplanes for 30+ years..... Aircraft fuel systems breath too. AND are FAR MORE exposed to temp swings than ANY marine fuel tank. The vast majority of water intrusion in airplanes is still the fuel caps leaking (rain) and fuel contamination......not so much from (aircraft fuel tank) condensation.

Fuel Supply contamination is a little more common now since the EPA pretty much "banned" underground fuel tanks and most FBO's went to (HUGE) above-ground tanks. THOSE (several thousand gallon) tanks can easily make condensation. But we're still talking quarts over time.... small planes typically have fuel tanks under 100 gallons....... (A typical Cessna 152 holds approx 26 gallons, 172 approx 40gal etc)

At the shop I worked at we only drained water out of the fuel tanks after it rained and when we washed the planes!

In the 32 years I have owned my Stinson (which holds 44 gallons), I can say I have NEVER drained any water out of either tank or the gascolator. I really don't think you can categorically blame discovered water on condensation in an aircraft fuel tank until you rule out the fuel caps, vent, and supply..... I do like to keep the airplane fairly full of fuel when it's parked because I have to fly to another town to get fuel (no fuel here) But I do not always keep it full. I have NEVER stored the boat full.

Before I built the door on my hanger, I had many instances of a large temp swing where it was VERY cold (teens-20's) for several days. THEN the temp and humidity would increase the next day..........In fact, the temp would be in the 40's-50's and then there would be FOG/rain etc.......... This is VERY common here in Western WA. We'll get VERY cold temps, it'll snow and be cold for anywhere from 1-3 weeks etc. Then the upper level weather will change directions from the North to the South and it'll warm up up to 40+ degrees.

When this happened, EVERYTHING in the hanger that was "cold-soaked" .............EVERYTHING, was DRIPPING WET from condensation.

In high humidity water would dripping from everything that was exposed to the high humidity. I have several gasoline and diesel powered "things" in my hanger. Including the boat and airplane. While everything was dripping with condensation, NONE of the fuel tanks, portable, vehicle, boat, airplane etc, had any water inside.....NONE. This happens several times during the fall, Winter and Spring. (I have a door on the hanger now!)

My experience and the experience of others, would seem to corroborate Pascoe's claim that marine fuel tank water contamination is not from condensation.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Syphoning gas from 1991 Four Winns 200 Horizon

I have to say, even though I've always seen condensation on the engine any any metal surfaces of the boat when stored, each year at the end of the season I dump the fuel filter and leave the gas in a glass container, to see if there is any water and I have never seen any, so I'd also have to agree with the above statement.