testing solenoid and where to get replacement

[jdamron]

So I went to the local lake on Saturday to burn off some old fuel and could not start, even though I had no starter related problems at all the previous several attempts over the last few weeks. :grumpy: A friend of mine tried to jump start the boat using his boat and some jumper cables and the starter motor would turn a little bit but not enough to start. So today I am troubleshooting if it is the starter or solenoid or both. I have a fully charged battery and I get 12.75 volts at the red input cable to the bottom of the solenoid from the battery. (see attached picture) And I get 12.75 volts at the small yellow wire with red stripe into the left of the solenoid only when key is turned. However, I hear no click (except choke click when using choke) and I get zero volts at the other large terminal on the solenoid with large yellow wire leading to the starter. Does this mean my solenoid is definitely bad?

Also, I went to iboats boat motor parts and they do have Sierra 18-5834 for Force 120 engines 1996-1999. I do not have an exact model number on my engine but I believe it is a late 92 to 95 Force 120 based on previous posts. Does anyone know if this Sierra solenoid would still work even though it is for different years and if not do you have any suggestions on where I might find a replacement?



Thanks in advance.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

First things first. Disconnect both of those wires and also the small wires black and yel/red, brush them clean until they are shiny and do the same with the terminals it goes to. Reconnect and tighten. To test if problem is starter related or solenoid, jumper from battery straight to the starter connections (where the yellow wires other ends connects) or you can just jumper over the two terminals of the solenoid. If starter turns over, then starter is good to go. If starter does not turn over, disconnect the negative cable from the battery and also its other end from the engine block, brush it shiny and also the mating surfaces. Reconnect and try again. If starter turns over it is good to go. If not starter is bad. Now for the solenoid, jumper the small yellow/red wire to the big red cable and the solenoid should at least click. If it does and turn over the starter, it is good to go. If it doesn't click, check to make sure the small black wire is properly connected to ground. Try again and if it still would not click, it is most likely bad.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Take it to Auto Zone and look there.
No need to spend the big bucks.
I have a used one. But buying a used solenoid isin't a good idea.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - update

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - update

Thanks for the suggestions. I removed all the connections and was cleaning them as recommended by Jiggz and found the small black ground wire was melted and broken. :facepalm: See attached picture. I think this happened when we were trying to jump it.



So I fixed that broken wire and finished cleaning all the terminals and connections and now it acts again like it did on Saturday when I first had the problem. I get about 12.5 volts to the red connection from the battery to the solenoid before cranking. And now when I turn the key I get about 9.5 volts to that same connection and also 9.5 volts now into the starter. The starter motor will turn the engine weakly for a second or so and then stop for a second or so and then repeats. Does this now sound like a bad starter? Do you think it is worth it trying to take the starter apart and replace the brushes or am I better off just replacing the starter?

Thanks.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

You still haven't done the suggested troubleshooting to identify if the problem is with the solenoid or starter. Please do those first and let us know of the results. However, if the battery voltage droops down to 9.5 when you engage the starter, it sounds like more of a discharged or weak battery.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Oh sorry, I just assumed that after I fixed the broken wire and I measure same voltage (9.5) going in and out of solenoid when key is turned that that meant the solenoid was okay. I will try the other jumper tests on the solenoid tomorrow. Also, yes it does kind of feel like a weak battery when I try to start it. But the battery is only a few months old and I fully charged it with a trickle charger before testing, and I get 12.75 volts directly on the battery so that is why I have been assuming the battery is okay. But I will do more testing as suggested by Jiggz tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Okay so this morning I was going to perform the additional jumper testing recommended by Jiggz. But before beginning I just tried to start it again using normal procedure and the starter motor turned just fine right away and after a few starting attempts on the cold engine the motor started right up. And after letting the engine run a few minutes I shut it off and restarted it a few more times and it starts fine now. Of course it is great that it starts fine now, but I have no idea why I could not start it last night and now it seems to start fine this morning after making no changes. I am going to try to restart every day for a few days and see if I can recreate the problem. I am wondering if perhaps it does not start as well in the afternoon when it is really hot - perhaps the battery, starter, and/or solenoid is going bad and does not work as well when it is hot - but this is just a guess.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

I do not believe it is the solenoid since it closes the ckt and even with the starter weakly cranking the engine it indicates the solenoid is most likely working perfectly. My money is on two things, loose connection (dirty or not tight enough) somewhere or starter needing cleaning, i.e. brushes and commutator. Well, at least for now it is working but that is even worse than before because now you'll never know when it will not work and hopefully that is not somewhere out at sea or the harbor. Anyways, as soon as you can recreate the problem continue with the suggested troubleshooting diagnosis previously mentioned. Or you can do it now just to eliminate the starter out of the equation by jumpering it straight to the battery.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Here is another quick update. This morning for second morning in a row it started right up at first. I then let the engine run for about five or so minutes to warm up and then shut it off. And then when trying to restart I followed normal procedure and heard the solenoid click and could see the starter motor turn a tiny bit (upper crawl was off) but starter motor would not turn normally. Also the starter bendix was just staying in the upper position engaged with the flywheel. I think this weekend I am going to remove the starter and disassemble it and see what it looks like inside. It could just need cleaning and/or brushes etc as suggested by Jiggz but if it looks to bad or complicated I may just end up purchasing a new one.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

So after it warms up it would not start normally. I wonder if you already cleaned the negative or ground cable connector on the engine block? If you follow the negative cable from the battery it ends up with the engine block for ground connection (usually just behind the carbs on the port side). If you haven't done so, please disconnect, wire brush it clean and shiny and the same with the terminal it goes to and then re-tighten.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Oh I forgot to add, as for the starter bendix, apply light oil or light grease on the shaft of the starter and also some heavy grease on the bendix gear teeth and some on the flywheel teeth. This helps engaging and disengaging the gears.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Thanks Jiggz for the replies. Yes I removed the negative cable from the battery to the engine block and brushed shinny using one of those metal brush attachments on my drill and reinstalled. I did that the other day when I cleaned all the terminals and connectors to the solenoid and starter. I will apply the light oil and grease you mentioned and try again before I remove the starter. Thanks.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Great. I still recommend doing the jumper diagnosis before taking down the starter just to make sure we are barking on the right tree. A clicking solenoid is a good indication but not a fool proof it is 100% working. There are times the main contacts in the solenoid are so pitted they do not make full contacts anymore. And the best way to prove this is by jumpering directly to the starter or using a screw driver to jumper the two large terminals on the solenoid. If the starter works perfectly when jumpered, the solenoid could be the source of the problem.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - another update

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - another update

Okay this morning I applied marine grease to the gear teeth and the flywheel teeth and a little light oil to the starter shaft as suggested by Jiggz.

And this time first thing this morning as soon as I tried to start the starter motor would only barely turn. So I disconnected the battery negative cable and then I attached the positive cable from the battery directly to the starter. I then made sure shift was in neutral and key was turned and I used pliers with rubber handles (I really do not want to get a jolt ) to touch the negative battery cable to the battery. And the starter had exact same behavior - just barely turning. So I believe I have ruled out the solenoid and the connections from the solenoid to the stater. I also noticed some smoke coming out of the bottom of the starter if I hold the connection together for several seconds. In addition, it seems the bottom of the starter assembly is not fully attached level - one side has a larger crack than the other side. Maybe someone took it off to service and did not put it on evenly or maybe this just loosened over time. I then removed the starter and am going to start taking it apart. Here are some pictures of this test.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Post pics of the inside of the starter when you get a chance. BTW that is just little bit too much grease on that flywheel and bendix. Wipe off the excess or spread it with a brush.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - inside of starter

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement - inside of starter

Okay here are pictures of the inside of the starter. The first thing I noticed is there is a strong burnt smell as soon as I opened it up. Also, there is a chunk missing on some of the magnet from the side of the frame - see first picture below. And I found a few small pieces of magnet down inside. I am thinking what happened is these bits of magnet would cause the motor to get stuck and sometimes they would break free and it would work for a while and then later more magnet material would break free and get it stuck again. At least that is my theory. I am assuming this is not worth cleaning and repairing, but I am open to opinions. Thanks.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

They have them available on ebay or amazon for less than $100 brand new. I say clean and repair this old one as much as you can and then make it a spare or re-install while waiting for the replacement.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement


Rebuild kits.From MERCURY.The aftermarket ones work, but are made from inferior products.
The pic of the brushes. They are stuck in the base and probably shorted out.
Clean the place on the armature where the brushes ride.
I use steel wool or a green scratch pad.
The pic is a tool I made from an old license plate.
It holds the brushes in place while you reinstall.
Or you can try electric tape.

 

[jdamron]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

Thanks for the thoughts. I think I will give this one a shot by cleaning and using mercury rebuilt kit as suggested. And then depending on how it works after that I will get a replacement starter or not. It seems like iboats.com does not carry the OEM repair kit. But from my research it looks like Mercury Force F15190 is what I need. Also one other quick question - when you clean these marine starters is there any special solvent you use, such as brake cleaner or carb cleaner or something like that?

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: testing solenoid and where to get replacement

I use Dawn dish soap.
Then dry with compressed air.
The worm gear under the bendix is one place for a tiny bit of grease.
The other is the bushing at the end of the armature.
Very tiny amount of grease. Both places.