Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

[Bry21317]

I have been reading alot of the information in these bulletin boards and it has really helped. Now I have a question to propose to anyone that can give me something to go on. I'm about to my wits end of figuring it out. <br /><br />This engine is on a 19.5' Bayliner Capri. The boat and motor are both 1988. <br /><br />My Tilt has never held pressure as it should, over the last two years I have replaced or repaired most of the parts of the system. Just this past week, I took off the tilt cylinder and took it apart, replaced all of the O ring seals, with factory parts. Then I took the the two plugs in the bottom of the pump out, that allow you to release the pressure, I believe, and replaced teh O ring seals on those also. I then put it all back together last night. It is working better than it ever has holding pressure now, and the engine will stay up, but it is still falling after being up for a while. This system has a shock on the right hand side, that when I had the Tilt cylinder removed,there seemed to be very little pressure in the shock. <br /><br />Does anyone have any ideas that I could try to fix this?<br /><br />On other thing that I have noticed, is that when the boat is in the water (before this last rebuild)when I would place it in reverse, the engine would come up out of the water. I tried to lift up on the engine last night after I had it all back together and trimmed up about half way, and the engine seemed to come up pretty easily, but then went back down to the set spot when I let go of it. Does anyone know what would cause this? Could this be because the shock seems to have little pressure? What does the shock on this system seem to do? I haven't beenable to get any answers from any boat places around here. <br /><br />Also, does anyone know about how fast this engine should push this boat? I have had it up to about 42 in the past, but now its only running about 32, but I think this could be due to old gas in the tank, and the trim not holding. I am hoping to try to get it to the lake this weekend to see how it will run with the trim partly fixed.<br /><br />Any help would be greatly apreciated.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

When you took the 2 plugs out of the bottom of the pump, did you take the valve (plug) apart and replace rhe tiny o-ring on the end of the needle?

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

There was a piece in the Middle between the two valves on either side of the Pump Valve assembly. There was a little piece in the very middle between these two valves, that had a point on either end. This is the only piece that I didn't replace the O Ring on. This has one O ring in the center of this. Is this the piece that you are refferring to? This O ring looked as to be in pretty good shape, and I didn't have it on hand last night, so I put it back together without replacing this one. I can get one and try tonight or tommorrow if you think this may help fix the problem.<br /><br />By te way I bought some of the Deep Creep stuff you had posted something about along time ago, and tried it on my car this morning and it seems to have worked great. Blew a ton of carbon buildup out. I will try it on the boat engine this weekend and see what happens.<br /><br />Thanks for all your help,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clanton, <br />I just reread your post, and started thinking. Are you talking about taking the plug apart, that has the is removed from the bottom of the pump by an allen wrench?<br /><br />If so, how do you take this plug apart that you are talking about replacing the Tiny O ring within? I looked and cleaned it really good, but didn't see any way to take this apart. It looked as if it is spring loaded inside, because on the end, there is a little ball, that I could press down with a small screw driver.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[ray21]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

bry,<br />i had the same problem about a year ago on my 1990 force 150hp...i couldn't figure out the problem, and ended up buying a new replacement pump for around $600. after i changed out the pumps, it worked great. i disassembled the old pump after removal and found that in the very bottom, where the valves are and the lines connect, there was a small (bb sized) ball on one side that had split, resulting in pressure leakoff. i replaced it with a bb (for my own curiosity), and switched out the pumps again. worked fine. i'm sure that a bb, which has layers and is very soft, wouldn't hold up long, but at least i knew that was the problem.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

I replaced the Pump, Valves at the bottom of Pump Assembly, and the entire (Small Fat) Trim Cylinder Last summer. The only part that I had not replaced was the Tilt Cylinder and the Shock absorber on the left side of the engine when looking at the back of the boat. <br /><br />This is why I took the tilt cylinder apart to rebuild it and replace the O rings.<br /><br />Any other ideas? I apreciate everything that you guys are giving to me. I have the Clymers manual, and have read this inside out about 10 times on all parts of this motor.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

One other thing I forgot to mention, is that there are no apparent external leaks in the system. I have cleaned all of the trim fluid from all lines, pump, and cylinders and there is no new fluid coming out of the system.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

After you remove check valve/plug, clean it, and take a good look at the valve, the end where you place the allen wrench to remove the valve( some have snap rings)is made of aluminum and the other end is steel, I use a flat blade screwdriver with a rag wrapped around the tip to place in the groove next to the steel cap, should be able to remove the steel cap by prying with screwdriver. When the cap comes off,( careful dont mar the valve) inside is a needle and spring that looks like a carbuator float needle, the seal is on the end of the needle. The pn for the seal from Merc is 820719, and you can find this seal at Sears, a Tecumseh or Briggs/Stratten dealer. the seal is about 3/16 outside dia,inside dia 1/16 inch. The inside hole has a bevel which goes toward the needle, or you can use a small o-ring. The seal works better.

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clymer manual B751-4, look at diagram 7/8 page 527 and 528, look real close and you can see the spring/needle/seal inside the pilot check valve/plug.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Thanks Clanton,<br />Is this seal the same part number at sears, as it would be through the boat dealer using the Mercury part #? OR would it be the Tecumesh or Briggs and stratton part?<br /><br />I have the Clymers B751-3 manual, but it still seems to show the same as yours does.<br /><br />Thanks for everything,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clanton,<br />I called the boat dealer here in town, they can order the seals. They will be in, in about 4 or 5 days, so then I will try and see what happens.<br /><br />Thanks for all your help.<br /><br />Bryan

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

I got anxious last night, so I tried the O Rings inside of the valves. I got it so that the trim stays up, pretty much as good as it should. <br /><br />I still have the seals on order, so they should be in this week, then I will put those in.<br /><br />The only thing that I am still running into is when I put it in reverse in the water, the engine raises up. <br /><br />Do you have any ideas what might cause this?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Did you replace o-rings on both pilot check valves? These are numbers for Briggs/Stratten 398188 and Tecumsen 631021 float needle kit that have the same seal that will work. You are causing me to hit the books. The 2 pilot check hold it up and down. If you change the 0-ring on the shuttle valve, which is between the 2 check valves, insure that the shuttle valve can move freely, if the shuttle valve sticks, it will hold the pilot check open. The only 0-ring that I could find that fit the shuttle valve came from an older GM air condition R12 o-ring kit. The only other valve that could cause this is the inpact relief valve in the tilt cylinder. I would wait until i got the seals from Merc,replace them, drain all of the fluid and replace with dextron ATF, cycle it 5/7 times then test.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clanton,<br />Everything that you have told me to, has been right on the head. You are the greatest. You really impressed me when you gave me the part numbers, and I called up the dealer and they were like yea, we can get that. <br /><br />I did replace all seals on the front and rear valves, the ones down by the plunger, where the needle is inside, and the ones back beside the threads that gets pressed against the pump body, when tightened. I also replaced the O ring on the shuttle valve last night. This moves freely it seems, I was able to pull the front plug on the pump, then pressed the the trim switch to make the motor pump go into the down position, it then made the shuttle valve come out into my hand from the open valve hole.<br /><br />Tell me about it, this thing is driving me crazy, trying to figure it out. At least it now stays up, so I can get it into the lake without somone sitting in the boat, pushing the trim up every five seconds.<br /><br />The other thing that I have found out, is that it seems the shock that is mounted on the other side of the engine from the tilt cyclinder is that it seems to have very little if any pressure in it. I was told by the dealer that this should be ok, because it doesn't atcually do anything bug add support and stability. Is this correct, or should this be replaced or opened and the seals replaced or can this be done? I ask you, since you give the best answers, that workkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clanton,<br />One question for you. I got the Seal's from the dealer this morning, will put them in tonight, I hope. But as to which way they go in, there is one side that is perfectly flat looking, the other side has a like indention or ring around the seal. Is this the side that you were talking about that was beveled? Should this go towards the very top of the valve (towards the inside of the pump, depending on the side) or towards the outside of the pump (where I unscrewed the plugs from)?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox<br />MTU

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

The identation should face the needle, and clean the groove where the seal sets. I not sure what the shock is suppose to do, would not worry with shock.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Clanton,<br />Thanks for everything!<br /><br />I am going home to try it now, the O rings have been holding the trim up since Sunday now, it hasn't fallen at all, but I'm gonna put the seals in anyways to find out if it will fix everything. My luck it won't, lol so get the books ready again, lol. <br /><br />Also, when you say towards the needle, do you mean towards the needle, is that towards the spring in this valve? Or towards the inside of the pump assembly.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[clanton]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

When the seal in on the needle, you will not be able to see the identation.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Ok,<br />Thanks Clanton.<br /><br />I have it apart right now, so I just got back in here to check to make sure I put the seal in the correct way. I am about to go do it now, and I will let you know how it does.<br /><br />It seemed that the plunger that holds the needle on the UP side, front side of the pump, had come out of the valve and was lodged in the valve assembly. I put this on tight, I thought, by hammering it down, lightly, with a towel on top of it. The other one held fine, no problems, was a pain to just get open.<br /><br />Thanks for all your help, I hope that it all is worth it and this thing doesn't give me anymore problems after this.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Tilt/Trim Problem on 1988 Force 125

Ok, I give up! lol<br /><br />The new seals are now in place, and working. When I tilt the engine up, it still is easily able to be pulled up. There seems to be pressure right at first, then something gives and it is easy to pick up, by hand.<br /><br />Now I do have a little bit of Fluid that I found, that is leaking out of the top line going into the titl cylinder. I had a friend ask me this morning, something very very basic, but to tell you the truth it could be the problem. I never trim the engine all the way down when I am docking or using reverse, could this be the cause if I don't it trimmed all the way down, so it is actually using the Trim cylinder instead of the Tilt cylinder? Could this be my problem, lol same thing when I have lifted the engine, it has been when it is up, supported by the Tilt cylinder.<br /><br />If so, Clanton, I can understand that your probably ready to shoot me after all this, about this darn trim system, lol.<br /><br />But thanks for everything.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox