Torture

txswinner

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How do we feel about using torture to interrogate possible terrorist. I always thought that is why we were better than the Germans, Japs, Gooks, North Koreans, Arabs and other uncivilized enemies. Something about this new law signed yesterday bothers me yet at times I feel we should do whatever it takes.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Torture

In order to win a fight, all parties must adhere to the same rules.


Ken
 

txswinner

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Re: Torture

rwise, I think I agree but who decides and do we do it with trial. Just scary I guess.

Sorry, Crusty and of course you are right. Comes from Dad serving in Pacific and me in SE Asia, yes I am prejudice and have prayed not to be many times.
 

Speedwagon

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Re: Torture

txswinner said:
How do we feel about using torture to interrogate possible terrorist. I always thought that is why we were better than the Germans, Japs, Gooks, North Koreans, Arabs and other uncivilized enemies. Something about this new law signed yesterday bothers me yet at times I feel we should do whatever it takes.

It depends what you call torture. The whole thing with putting a guy in a cold room, and blasting RHCP isn't my idea of torture. Torture is not being uncomfortable, torture is being put in extreme pain and suffering.

No matter how bad the music is, it's not torture. By some people's standards, I was "tortured" waiting for the bus to pick me up in grade school! There's a very shady line on torture right now, and there are ridiculous people on both sides of it(like always).

I don't really think waterboarding is torture either. Getting closer, and I wouldn't say go past it, but I don't think it's torture. I'm sure it is plenty unpleasant. But then, it's not very pleasant if you fall out of your boat in the middle of the lake either, and it takes off on you. But noone calls that torture.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Torture

I define torture as causing a lasting physical injury.

No hitting, burning, or electro-shocking.

Making them wear used womens underware on their head isnt torture. Hanging them upside down or locking them in a crouched position isnt torture.

Ken
 

treedancer

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Apr 10, 2005
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2,216
Re: Torture

here is a cut and paste read and you decide.
theres more here.

http://lawofwar.org/what's_new.htm



An Essay For The Winter of 2005/2006
Is Waterboarding Torture: Ask Our World War Two Vets

In a recent investigative report, Brian Ross and Richard Esposito of ABC News described the CIA’s use of an interrogation technique called "waterboarding."

The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

In an editorial dated November 12, 2005 the Wall Street Journal denied that waterboarding was "...anything close to torture."

No one has yet come up with any evidence that anyone in the U.S. military or government has officially sanctioned anything close to "torture." The "stress positions" that have been allowed (such as wearing a hood, exposure to heat and cold, and the rarely authorized "waterboarding," which induces a feeling of suffocation) are all psychological techniques designed to break a detainee.

So, who’s right? Is waterboarding torture, or is it merely a stressful psychological technique?Interestingly, the United States has long since answered that question. Following the end of the Second World War we prosecuted a number of Japanese military and civilian officials for war crimes. including the torture of captured Allied personnel.

At one of those trials, United States v. Sawada, here’s how Captain Chase Nielsen, a crew member in the 1942 Doolittle Raid on Japan, described his treatment, when he was captured, (and later tried for alleged war crimes by a Japanese military commission):

Q: What other physical treatment was administered to you at that time?
A: Well, I was given what they call the water cure.
Q: Explain to the Commission what that was.
A: Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water was poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let me up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again.
Q: When you regained consciousness would they keep asking you questions?
A: Yes sir they did.
Q: How long did this treatment continue?
A: About twenty minutes.
Q: What was your sensation when they were pouring water on the towel, what did you physically feel?
A: Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death.

The prosecutor in that case was vehement in arguing that the captured Doolittle fliers had been wrongfully convicted by the Japanese tribunal, in part because they were convicted based on evidence obtained through torture. "The untrustworthiness of any admissions or confessions made under torture," he said, "would clearly vitiate a conviction based thereon."At the end of the Tokyo War Crimes Trial, the International Military Tribunal for the Far East of which the United States was a leading member (the Tribunal was established by Douglas MacArthur) convicted former Japanese Prime Minister Tojo and numerous other generals and admirals of a panoply of war crimes. Among them was torture:
The practice of torturing prisoners of war and civilian internees prevailed at practically all places occupied by Japanese troops, both in the occupied territories and in Japan. The Japanese indulged in this practice during the entire period of the Pacific War.
Methods of torture were employed in all areas so uniformly as to indicate policy both in training and execution. Among these tortures were the water treatment...The so-called "water treatment" was commonly applied. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process.

So, is waterboarding torture? Do we have to wait to find out until an enemy again does it to captives from our armed forces? What was the Wall Street Journal thinking?© 2005 Evan Wallach For those who are interested in Sawada, the full transcripts and entire trial record may be found in the National Archives. The case is United States v Sawada et al, tried at Shanghai before a United States Military Commission (27 Feb-15 Apr., 1946).
I have a copy of the entire trial record if anyone ever needs it. A synopsis may be found in most decent law school law libraries in the Law Reports of Trials of Major War Criminals Vol 5 at p.1 There are, of course, lot of other references to water torture by the Japanese, not least in the Judgment of the IMT Far East. Evan Wallach
 

txswinner

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Re: Torture

I have heard enough, I think, unless convinced otherwise I oppose this bill as a civilized Christian person.

1. How do we decide who to torture. ( Some Col in the field or what.)

2. What is torture and what is just psychological information gathering.

When a kid I remember feeling sorry for the children in China and Russia as they were psychologically trained to follow the Communist line. This I considered torture by their government. America is better than that.

Ok let me have it.
 

Speedwagon

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Re: Torture

txswinner said:
I have heard enough, I think, unless convinced otherwise I oppose this bill as a civilized Christian person.

1. How do we decide who to torture. ( Some Col in the field or what.)

2. What is torture and what is just psychological information gathering.

When a kid I remember feeling sorry for the children in China and Russia as they were psychologically trained to follow the Communist line. This I considered torture by their government. America is better than that.

Ok let me have it.

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that the way the Chinese and Russians are raised, from birth, is a form of torture?

I certainly think our system is far better than communism, but to call another form of government torture? Or am I misunderstanding your point?
 

davemaxi1970

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Re: Torture

txswinner said:
I have heard enough, I think, unless convinced otherwise I oppose this bill as a civilized Christian person.

1. How do we decide who to torture. ( Some Col in the field or what.)

2. What is torture and what is just psychological information gathering.

When a kid I remember feeling sorry for the children in China and Russia as they were psychologically trained to follow the Communist line. This I considered torture by their government. America is better than that.

Ok let me have it.

Well said
 

Plainsman

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Re: Torture

txswinner said:
I have heard enough, I think, unless convinced otherwise I oppose this bill as a civilized Christian person.

1. How do we decide who to torture. ( Some Col in the field or what.)

2. What is torture and what is just psychological information gathering.

When a kid I remember feeling sorry for the children in China and Russia as they were psychologically trained to follow the Communist line. This I considered torture by their government. America is better than that.

Ok let me have it.

You are entitled to think and beieve what you want.

I take the opppisite view as you. I am more on the page of no perminat bodily injuries.

Part of Tree's post said "So, is waterboarding torture? Do we have to wait to find out until an enemy again does it to captives from our armed forces?"

I think they perfer to chop off heads and hands and cut out hearts as to waterboarding.
 

tommays

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Re: Torture

i dont like the whole torture deal

BUT if you can really break somebody in 2 to 3 minutes on a waterboard it seems allmost humane compared to breaking them over a peroid of weeks ?

Tommays
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Torture

and whats funny is who is a terrorist? to you torture them to find out? how many US personell have been convicted or currently under investigation for the death of a detained SUSPECT?.
how many SUSPECTS have been released that were held tortured and found to be innocent without a trial ?
the other thing is even the CIA and the pentagon say confessions from torture are not reliable at all.
whats really funny is the guy the US let go today at the Iraqi govt request, a KNOWN killer is now on the streets of bagdad again.
I have a couple cousins that have been "interrogated" one by the north koreans and 2 by the north veitnemse. all confessed, none have physical disabilities,one has some scars, but all 3 have life long mental issues from it.
no i do NOT support torture as a means to an end.
my God says its wrong,MY CONSTITUTION says its wrong.
 

JRJ

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Re: Torture

Name the country that you would most rather be captured by. Of course torture is wrong, but frankly, God isn't listening. If HE was, it wouldn't be happening.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Torture

well when one day I meet my maker I dont wish to debate with him the fact I knew it was wrong but the ends justified the means.
that seems to be a losing argument.

its shameful that the politicians are waiting till AFTER the elections to do anything while so many suffer. US and coalition montly losses are bad but the Iraqi losses are absolutly stupendous if you believe even half of the international news, US news never reports much about it. so much for leftist media.
 

JRJ

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Re: Torture

Ends may justify the means. A lot of The Worlds problems might have been averted if, after WWII, a pimple or two had been popped. North Korea and North Vietnam come to my mind. Sadly, it is too late for so many men, women and children.
I wonder what our leaders of the past would do differently if they had only known.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Torture

if they paid attention,they knew, WWII would not have occured,
 

JRJ

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Re: Torture

rodbolt said:
if they paid attention,they knew, WWII would not have occured,

Really? So not listening or paying attention is normal for our Democratic and Republican leaders. Meanwhile, this country runs on the blood and guts of our youth while some wring their hands over how our enemies are treated from the comfort of their living room.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
Messages
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Re: Torture

pretty much. its all in the name of cash.
our current presidents grandpa was convicted of trading banned war matriels, mostly steel, with the nazis all during WWII and into 1948. he was made a senator for it. but the conviction still stood and stands.
yall need to read a bit mo his to e
 
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