Total timing advance too high?

Tycer

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Jun 20, 2019
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Man I like this new fangled timing light. I have no idea what it would’ve cost me 20 years ago when I would’ve been using it regularly.

So it looks like I’ve got too much timing advance. All in combined it’s about 41°. Do I need new springs? Anybody got a part number?

EDIT- I just read that I should check this in the water. I’ll report back later this afternoon.
 

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Scott Danforth

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if youre reading 41 degrees total on a 3.0, you will most likely melt your pistons.

your base timing should be 6 degrees, and your total about 28 or 29 (22 degrees of advance)

if you are reading 41, then your base timing is 19 degrees. the springs and weights control WHEN the advance moves, the weight stops control how MUCH the advance moves.
 

Tycer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 20, 2019
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if youre reading 41 degrees total on a 3.0, you will most likely melt your pistons.

your base timing should be 6 degrees, and your total about 28 or 29 (22 degrees of advance)

if you are reading 41, then your base timing is 19 degrees. the springs and weights control WHEN the advance moves, the weight stops control how MUCH the advance moves.

Please read the text in my picture from the manual and tell me I f I’m reading the manual correctly.
Base timing is 6°.
Distributor advance is 35° (I missed the 35 line with my red dot)
Total timing is 41°
 

alldodge

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The advance timing light is probably showing you total advance 35, then subtract 6 = 29

Which timing light do you have?
 

Scott Danforth

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keep in mind, the total advance on the 3.0 is 29 degrees. it is not 35 degrees. that is an error in the manual.
 

Tycer

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The advance timing light is probably showing you total advance 35, then subtract 6 = 29

Which timing light do you have?

Innova. What I did was take and set my timing at 6°. Then I move the advance on the timing light to 6° and the tiny mark moved to zero. To do my graph I simply bumped the timing light advance up 5° at a time and marked the rpm where the timing Mark was again at zero.
 

Scott Danforth

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if you have the voyager distributor, you set the base timing closer to 1 degree
 

alldodge

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I have nothing, but don't see how you can get that much with any distributor

Even if base was at ATDC instead of BTDC the light should still track it
 

Tycer

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if you have the voyager distributor, you set the base timing closer to 1 degree

Plain old P&C GM.
I read 3950 and 42° on this meter. The Faria dash tach read 4200. 21p aluminum prop and 38.7 mph gps. 1800 pound boat and motor, modified vhull. Trim 2/3 out.

With the new 1.5 ohm coil and ceramic encased 1.5 ohm ballast resistor she ran like a champ at WOT for 1.5 hours. There’s a light rattle that might be the alternator, I’ll get the stethoscope out this weekend. Pinging? We’ll track it down.
 

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Tycer

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I have nothing, but don't see how you can get that much with any distributor

Even if base was at ATDC instead of BTDC the light should still track it

Right. The tool is suspect. How do I get it tested?
 

alldodge

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Don't let the light go to advance and mark the damper and see if it moves that much. Rent another from a local store and compare.
 

Tycer

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Don't let the light go to advance and mark the damper and see if it moves that much. Rent another from a local store and compare.

Marked the pulley. Yep. 42°
Found the culprit.
 

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Tycer

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So I welded a bead on the pin that elongated that hole and shaped it to fit the keyhole so the total advance is on the low side of the chart. Oh, and the sound is gone. 🤠
It really disappoints me that someone put this distributor back together with that keyhole in it. There’s a tag on this thing that tells me it’s a rebuilt distributor. By how clean and tight the innards are there’s not a lot of hours on the rebuild.
 
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Tycer

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[No message]
 

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Tycer

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118
if youre reading 41 degrees total on a 3.0, you will most likely melt your pistons.

your base timing should be 6 degrees, and your total about 28 or 29 (22 degrees of advance)

if you are reading 41, then your base timing is 19 degrees. the springs and weights control WHEN the advance moves, the weight stops control how MUCH the advance moves.
It was the weight stop.
 

Tycer

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Jun 20, 2019
Messages
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keep in mind, the total advance on the 3.0 is 29 degrees. it is not 35 degrees. that is an error in the manual.
You were correct. The manual is wrong. I’ve fought this thing since September of last year. Couldn’t be the manual I said. Cheese. At least I am now intimate with most every part of this boat.
Installed the Voyager last week and she runs like a champ.

If it helps anyone, here’s the sad saga.

Brand new points rubbing block worn on day one. Bought new

Coil suspect. Bought new

Resistor wire missing. Bought new

Main breaker failed

Tried a used replacement - had a broken terminal. Bought new

Alternator belt too long - exceeded adjustment. Bought correct new

Outdrive is from a 470, wrong gear ratio for 140. Changed prop.

Carb from 470 was over-jetted for 140 - rebuilt carb with correct jet upgraded to metal float. Needle/seat splash guard in carb wouldn’t allow the new float to cut off fuel. Opened up the slot with tin snips.

Boat had B-1 5/16” fuel line- replaced with 5/16” USCG approved A-1 (B-1 is approved only for vents in I/O motors)

Steering jerky. Geplaced gearset

Steering wheel broke - glued

Distributor advance too far - fixed to within factory spec (26°) as per Mercruiser Factory Service Manual. Manual clearly states in two places that the distributor advance is independent of basic initial timing and must be added to basic initial timing to obtain total timing. I was told that the manual is incorrect. This may have been the sole issue with the engine dying. Spark advance of 32° too much causing heat in head and vapor lock.

September 2019-July 2020 the boat never ran solid more than two outings in a row. Would run for an undetermined amount of time and die. Anywhere from five minutes to two hours. Never had to be towed but many times after restart the motor would only run a couple of minutes or seconds.

Starter died - bolt from motor to solenoid rusted through. Had starter rebuilt, new solenoid.

Chased down ignition failure idea - new coil as backup. New condenser as backup. Both of the ones installed testing within specs. Isolated engine ignition electrical to direct to battery only. All other connections removed. Battery to coil only. No change. Swapped in new parts. No change. Chasing down the ignition was done in one four hour trip to the lake.

Chased down a vapor lock idea -checked fuel pickup filter, anti-siphon valve, and fuel filters. Fuel vacuum was not excessive but Increased fuel line to 3/8” and replaced the anti-siphon valve with 3/8” valve anyway. Rerouted the fuel line along lower rear of bilge. Previously it was higher up the transom kind of near exhaust riser. The fuel pressure was on the low side so I disassembled Carter fuel pump - the diaphragm in the pump was dry cracked and the brass fitting for the leak detector line was plugged with varnish. Bought new Carter pump. Fuel pressure is within spec and vac side is really low. Added phenolic spacer under carb to isolate carb from manifold. It’s probably a snake oil old mechanic myth that it has any effect on heat soak but I think it fixed an old triple deuce setup I once had... Removed insulation from doghouse. Chasing down the vapor lock idea took four trips to the lake. 4-6 hours each trip. Time to engine dying seemed to have been lengthened. Still dying. SSDD

Went back to the ignition and installed a Delco Voyager EST distributor/coil kit. Set base timing at 1° BTDC. Total advance 29° BTDC @ 4000rpm. Idle quality greatly improved. Top speed unchanged, throttle response unchanged, engine coolant temp a bit lower after running hard. Heat soak now raises coolant sending unit to about 150° (previously 175°). Ran four days at varying speeds and down time(testing heat soak). About 150 miles traveled. Top speed 38+mph at 4500 rpm. Ran tanks of 87 octane 10% ethanol, 87 non ethanol and 90 non ethanol. All ran great. Air temp near 90° and the Garmin said the water was 85°.


New carpet has already gotten a funk to it in the cockpit. Kind of urine smelling. Ski locker and cooler always has bits and pieces of debris in it.

Tracked both down. The blower to running from the ski locker to the blower foil tube was full of trash, decaying leaves and what not and the tube running from the ski locker to the bilge was also full of decaying matter. Vacuum, soap and water, and a strong hose spray might have fixed it. The urine smell was coming from the center windshield pocket. The pocket had been the home of mice. The debris had plugged the drain tube and the foul water was leaking onto the cabin carpet. There was an acrylic circle siliconed to the bottom of the pocket just aft of the drain hose. When removed, the pieces of blue tarp, pine needles, black cottony something, mouse poop and mouse skeletons would have filled a half gallon jar.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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May 19, 2004
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27,468
Wow. That's one hell of a saga. Qudos for being persistent and getting it all sorted out...

Chris.....
 
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