VHF ant info

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Could someone please explain to me in laymans terms, what the difference is between an 8' 3db ant and an 8' 6db ant. I don't really care about finish or glossy looks, just want the best performance I can get without spending a fortune. Shakespeare sells several models in greatly different price ranges that are 8'. I had a 420 (5') until it was damaged and I threw it out. Switching to an 8' unit and really would like to know what I'm getting for the money. Thanks.
 

datawire

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
103
Re: VHF ant info

Well... I've been dealing with antennas for a really long time - and they still fool me occasionally. One of the best sites I know of for boaters is http://www.shakespeare-marine.com/antennas/whichant.htm Shakespeare is one of the best (and oldest) manufacturers available, and are very quick to respond when you have unusual problems. Pick your antenna there - but buy from an online dealer to save a considerable amount of money. Hope this helps.
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: VHF ant info

Let me see if I can give you some sort of understandable explaination of gain and height and construction methods to help you out. Let's start with the hard parts and move to the easy ones.<br /><br />Gain. Gain, in antennas (it is a word that means different things in different context) simply referes to the focusing of the radiation pattern comming from the antenna so that more of the power is sent out in one plane than in any other. <br /><br />Let's begin this part by simply saying that you have the perfect VHF Marine radio and that it puts out 25 watts of power at all times when it is transmitting. The power which is produced in the radio is sent to the antenna via a 2-part cable. The cable (coax) has a center conductor that is insulated from an outside braid which is further insulated from the outside world. While this isn't true I want you to think of the center wire in the coax as being Positive (+) and the shielding as Negative (-). The coax connects the radio to the antenna and the power is emitted somewhere from the antenna. Next I want you to think of the place on the antenna where the power is emitted as being a single little dot, a point in space. All of the power that is emitted from that single little dot goes out in ever direction with equal force (25 watts) and so if you could see the power's radiation pattern it would be a big ball, perfectly round. That sort of antenna would be described as "Unity" and because there is no focusing of the power comming from that little point in space we would say it has a gain of Zero (0). That unity antenna with its zero gain is the reference point from which all other antennas are measured. Remember, no focusing of power and a radiation pattern that is as round as a basketball. No such antenna actually exists, its just a theoretical reference point.<br /><br />With our unity antenna just as much power will to straight up as goes straight down and if its on your boat about a third of the power from your radio will be wasted because its shooting off into space and about a third will be wasted because it is shooting down into the water (from which it will 'bounce' and be reflected to some extent back into space.<br /><br />It is possible, by way of the design of the antenna itself, to focus the power from an antenna. When this happens the radiation pattern will be flattened so that the power is focused. Instead of it looking like this 0 it will look like this ( ). Now the briefest explaination of what is meant by Decibel in this context. All you need to know is that for every 3 dB effective power is doubled, I'll explain in a few moments. If the antenna is constructed such that half of the power that used to shot off into useless directions is now focused into one direction it can be said that the effective power of that antenna has been doubled. There is still just exactly as much power as you began with, its just that now it is all being directed in a useful direction rather than half of it being lost. So we would say of such an antenna that it has a gain of 3 dB. The effect of this is that if you were at a receiving station at some distance away and were able to measure the power from a transmitting station it would seem to be comming from a radio that had 50 watts of power, even though our little VHF is only putting out 25 watts. So that is the effect of gain, it refers to the focusing of power, resulting from the design of the antenna, and its effect is to artificially increase the effective power output from a radio. If you were to further compress the outgoing signal from our 3 dB antenna you could focus more power and direct it at the horizon, in our case, and narrow the radiation pattern in half again and have the effect of once again effectively doubling the outgoing power, so that our 25 radio would seem to be a 100 watt radio at the receiving station. Oh, and if we did that second doubling of the radiation pattern the dB rating of the antenna would increase by another 3 dB, or be the typical 6 dB antenna that is sold all over the place.<br /><br />From that it would appear that it might be desirable to buy the highest gain antenna you can find. After all, if the effective power doubles with each 3 dB increase in gain then the more doubling the better, right? Well, no. The problem with continously increasing the gain isn't in the antenna or radio, its in the nature of boats. Boat's bounce, move side to side, and move up and down fore and aft. An antenna mounted to a boat does too. The power that is emitted from your boat's antenna comes off of the stick at a 90 degree angle to the direction the antenna is pointed. So if the antenna is pointed straight up, as it should be, then the power is directed out generally parallel to the water, towards the horizon. This is good. If your boat were able to stay level all the time and your antenna were to point straight up in the air all the time you would want all the gain you could get. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.<br /><br />If your boat rolls to the side, lets say that 4 people all go to one side to look at a fish at once, and you pick up the mike to call your buddy to tell him about the fish all at the same time, what happens to the radio signal? Well, les't say that the boat leans way over as everyone goes to one side. Now the power being radiated from that antenna is being directed in some strange directions. The radiation pattern still has the power emitted at a 90 degree angle to the stick, but now that will be focusing a lot of the power down into the water on one side of the boat and up into space on the other side. The greater the gain, which is to say the more the outgoing power is focused, the worse this effect is. That is why you don't see extremely high gain antennas being used on small boat. The smaller the boat the more it rocks and the more it rocks the more power will be lost because it is directed into a useless direction.<br /><br />For practicle purposes most small boats are best served by using an antenna of about 6 dB gain. It is a great compromise that balances the desire for higher effective power with the reality of instability in small boats.<br /><br />As long as we're on this subject let me give you a gross over simplificaton of how this gain increase is accompished. You may have heard the term wavelength used from time to time when refering to radio signals. If you think about signals being waves then the distance between the crests of successive waves is the wave length. It is one of the characteristics of radio waves that the higher the frequency of a signal the shorter the wave length. In the case of our VERY HIGH frequency (VHF) radios the length of the wave we send out is about 6 feet. In making an antenna the radiating element should be matched to the wavelength, but it can also be some fractional multiple of the wave length. So if you had a marine VHF antenna that had radiating element that was about 3 feet long it would be described as a half wave length antenna because the length of the radiating element would be one half the length of the wave of energy that is being emitted. Guess what the gain of such an antenna would be? 3 dB. Have you noticed that most of the antennas in the catalogs are quarter wave antennas? The radiating element in those antennas is about a foot and a half long, one fourth of a wavelength. What do you suppose happens to the radiating pattern when you shorten the antenna from 3 feet down to half that, a foot and a half? Easy, you get a 6 dB antenna out of it. Pretty amazing how those two things are related, isn't it?<br /><br />Now I want to tell you something that I expect and hope you willnever have to use. If you were caught on a terrible storm and your antenna broke off and you were taking on water but couldn't call for help because of he loss of the antenna what could you do? Well, if you took the coax from the radio and skinned back the insulation from about a foot and a half of the center conductor and then another foot and a half of the braided shielding you could use it for an antenna. You would have to make sure they were not touching, the center conductor and the shielding, but you could tape the center to the tip of a fishing pole and then pull down the shielding in the opposite direction so it was center wire pointing straight up and braid pointing straight down, and you could transmit and receive with it. Some of the cheap antennas made by Shakespeare and other manufacturs aren't much more than that internally, just the coax stripped back, center up and shield down, and held in place with little foam blocks and silicon sealer. Really. The much better made antennas use metal radiating elements, usually brass rods, and other devices to improve transmisson and reception.<br /><br />Height. Higher is better. Very High Frequency radio waves transmitting frequency modulated (FM) signals do not bend to follow the coutour of the earth. They will bounce off of some things, but the upper levels of the atmosphere is not one of those things. So there is no 'skywave' bounce from them and the signals are often refered to as being "Line of Sight". That means that your signal can't drop below the horizon. The greatest limiting factor the the range of our VHF radios is antenna height. Power almost never has anything at all to do with the range we have available to us. If you could increase the power of your radio from its current 25 watts to 100 watts, or even a thousand watts, it would not increase your maximum range by a single inch. You are limited by the line of sight. The higher the tip of your antenna the farther out the horizon it can 'see'. On most small boats the only way to get the antenna higher is to buy a longer antenna. Most of us don't have a standing superstrucure to mount antennas to to get them higher. For most small boats the largest practicle size antenna is about 8 feet. For some folks shorter antennas are required. In any event the higher the antenna the greater your range will be. It is that simple.<br /><br />You can determine the maximum range you can expect to see from your radio if you know the height above the water for both your antenna dn the heigh of the station you are trying to communicate with. It works like this, you find the height of your antenna (in feet) and then take the square root of that number and multiply it times 1.54. Then do the same for the other station's antenna. Add the two numbers together and it will give you the maximum range, in statute miles. at which those two stations could communicate. It is a lot shorter distance than many people will tell you.<br /><br />I want to comment on that and it is something that just makes me furious. If you read these internet boating pages for any length of time at all you will find all manner of foks who tell you that they routinely communicate with other boats that are 50 miles away, or 100 miles away, or sometimes even more outragous claims are made. I get mad as hell because I think this BS makes some new boaters believe they can safely goes miles and miles off shore and away from other boats because they have great range in which they can call for help. It is simply not at all true. You will be lucky under normal circumstances to talke to people more than about 15 miles away and if you both happen to be on 20-something foot boat that distance will be more like 10 miles. Now there are some unusual atmospheric conditions (called atomspheric ducting) that will increase your range, but you can not count on them, cerntainly not rely on them with your life. So, every time you see a message by some guy that says he regularly talks to someone else 50 iles away you might just want to skip on to the next message, because you are being fed a line of pure BS by a guy whos advice just might get you into the last serious trouble you will ever see.<br /><br />Construction methods. Its a fiberglass tube with some wire in it. On the bottom its got some sort of fitting that allows it to be mounted. That is all our antennas are. How much better or worse is one fiberglass tube than another one? If find it interesting that if you go to the Shakespeare main home site one of the first things that jumps out at you is that they make a lot more than antennas. What they make is fiberglass tubes, for every purpose under the sun. Antennas are just one of the uses. So, the tube really doesn't matter much, after all, how much difference is there between the best made one one earth and an average one? Nothing you or I would particularly notice. Maybe better materials, maybe a little thicker or thinner, but not much. How about the furrell, the thing on the end where you screw it into a mount? Well, you get two choices, plastic or stainless steel. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is stronger. Then there is the internal stuff. Remember the stripped back wire on a fishing pole? That is what a $39 antenna from anyone is like inside. You know those somewhat expensive antennas by Shakespeare, the Gallaxy line? They all use stainless furrels, they all use some sort of spiral wrapped glass in the tube (better I suppose), they have a nice finish, but more imporantly, they use brass radiating elements that are soldered at all connections. The only complaint I have about Shakespeare antennas is that the elements are usually not very sell supported within the tube. Grab most any Shakespeare antenna and give it a good hard shake. Hear anything ratteling inside? You will never hear that with an antenna made by Digital Antennas (my favorites, a little more money but worth it).<br /><br />And that is about all that comes immediately to mind. Did I give you enough to ask some more quesitons?<br /><br />Thom
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

Wow! Info overload. That really helps! I feel you have answered several questions not in the post. For instance it would explain why I was not happy transmitting and rec just under 5 miles with a 3 foot whip ant. I used this as a cheap quick fix until I figured some way to mount an 8 footer on my 16' CC boat. My buddy could pick me up at about 4.5 miles, max. Leaving him sitting in calm water, I entered a very rough stretch of channel approx 2 miles away and he said I began to break up. I suspect now that it was the attitude of the boat which was taking a terrible beating from the storm and waves. Pitch and roll factor you mentioned. Makes sense now. <br /><br />Thanks for all the info. You are obviously a patient typer. I get frustrated but keep pecking. I am constructing a short base to mount the 8' on way out in the front of the boat. It might look a little goofy, but I consider the VHF my first line of defense. I have most of it planned out and will get the ant up about 3 feet over the water at the base. Should give me about 11 feet total.<br /><br />I broke lots of rules installing the 3'... I cut the coax back to barely 3 feet, installed it withing 12" of the radio. I did however, solder the pl259. It does seem to work, but since I rarely transmit I may have saved my radio from being damaged. Would this happen? Being within 12" could cause some kind of feedback? Seems like I read that somewhere.... No way to get the ant any further from the radio due to space limitations, however I plan on doing the 8' right away. <br /><br />Thanks again... Now I'll go back to work and have a few more questions pop up as I daydream!
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: VHF ant info

Oh, you're probably OK. The 3-foot rule for the coax is pretty important to the life of your radio, but its not going to fry it on day one, even day 10 for that matter. All antennas, and radios, and connecting cables have to be matched and changing the length of either the antenna or the cable that connects it to the radio can have an effect on that match. Its called impedance, but other than to know that as long as you buy an antenna noted for use with marine radios and as long as you don't cut that cable back to much less than 3 feet you'll be matched well enough. As to the one foot from the radio distance you see as a minimum I want you to remember something. They aren't talking about the base where the antenna is mounted. That is a meaningless point. The actual antenna isn't at the base, its way up there in the tip. Remember, its only about 18" long. That last 18" is located all the way up in the tip of the fiberglass tube. If you have an 8' antenna that means that its six and a half feet away from the base - well outside of the 1 foot minimum that the manufacturer talks about.<br /><br />On soldering the PL-259. It never occured to me, in the days prior to the solderless ones by Shakespeare, that anyone ever installed them without soldering them. When you install one of the plugs there are two elements that much be connected electrically. The center wire in the coax has to make a good connection to the center pin of the 259 and the braided shielding from the cable must make a good connection to the body of the 259. Remember when I said to think of them as being the + and - sides of a circuit? Well, just like in your DC power system you need both sides of the battery hooked up to make a circuit. If you were to connect a 259 and have a poor or nonexistant connection with the braided part of the coax you would probably still be able to receive to some extent but you would not be able to transmit with success. Worse than that every time you did try to transmit it would do some small damage to your radio. If the situation is reversed, and you had a good connection with the braid but the center wire wasn't connected electrically you wouldn't be able to either transmit or receive and trying to transmit would do serious dammage to your radio in very short order. So getting good sound soldered connections on both the center pin and the outer shielding is really the key to a good working radio/antenna system. The most common cause of failure of VHF radios to be able to transmit or receive as they should is poor or failed installation of the PL-259. <br /><br />Soldring is a learned art. No one can tell you how other than to say that you heat the metal, not the solder, and from there you have to learn by doing. Most guys these days never solder much of anything and so they don't get much practice. That is why I like the Shakespeare "Centerpin" solderless PL-259 connector. They sell for between $3~5 all over the place and anyone can get it right the first time, and do it in 2 minutes. So if you haven't done much soldering, unless you just want to learn how to do it, I really recommend one of these solderless 259's.<br /><br />By the way, here is something that you might want to do sometime, its revealing. The next time you replace a fiberglass antenna do this with the old one. Take a hammer and smash it. Break up the tube and remove it. Take a look at the guts of the antenna. Once you've done that try to figure out why it cost as much as it does.<br /><br />Thom
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

I'm still laughing. Already looked into the smashed Shakespeare 5'. It was splintered pretty badly at the base when it got caught under a railroad trestle one morning before sunup at Gasparilla Pass. Pinned me pretty good and it seemed to know exactly where the base of that Shakespeare was. I thought at first it was just an eggshell. Nothing much in there but a coax cabe at the base. Amazing.<br /><br />So, I measure from the tip of the 3' down to the radio, not from the base? That gives me plenty of room to spare then. I remember soldering the braided part of the coax cable as well as the center part. However, I think I will recheck it just to be sure. I want to pick up one of those Centerpin PL-259 and probably replace it anyway. I never was much good as soldering. It looks real ugly actually. My buddy just jammed his PL-259 together and left it unsoldered. Doesn't seem to care... I tried to talk him into soldering it. No good. Shoot, maybe his radio is the one breaking up, not mine! ha ha.<br /><br />Thanks for all the info, it really hits the spot. Have narrowed my choices of ant to the Shakespeare 5225 or the Digital 529. I have not found a dealer in the Orlando area yet that carrys Digital. Will keep looking.
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

Originally posted by datawire:<br /> Well... I've been dealing with antennas for a really long time - and they still fool me occasionally. One of the best sites I know of for boaters is http://www.shakespeare-marine.com/antennas/whichant.htm Shakespeare is one of the best (and oldest) manufacturers available, and are very quick to respond when you have unusual problems. Pick your antenna there - but buy from an online dealer to save a considerable amount of money. Hope this helps.
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

Datawire, thanks for the links. Checked them out and they really helped, too. Didn't mean to ignore your reply. I had a Shakespeare that was damaged and it always worked great for me until the accident.
 

kd6nem

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 25, 2003
Messages
576
Re: VHF ant info

Thom VW,<br />I don't know if you meant this the way I am reading it:<br />
So if you had a marine VHF antenna that had radiating element that was about 3 feet long it would be described as a half wave length antenna because the length of the radiating element would be one half the length of the wave of energy that is being emitted. Guess what the gain of such an antenna would be? 3 dB. Have you noticed that most of the antennas in the catalogs are quarter wave antennas? The radiating element in those antennas is about a foot and a half long, one fourth of a wavelength. What do you suppose happens to the radiating pattern when you shorten the antenna from 3 feet down to half that, a foot and a half? Easy, you get a 6 dB antenna out of it. Pretty amazing how those two things are related, isn't it?
Are you saying that a quarter wave antenna has greater gain than a half wave? (I'm not talking the magnetic vs. electrical field thing, just overall gain) If so I would have to disagree. I believe the reverse would be true.<br />Otherwise, this was a great explanation which will be very useful to any who will take the time to pay attention to it. There is a lot of "magic" to antennas, but the magic was well explained for the average user's purposes.
 

Keith Buchanan

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
221
Re: VHF ant info

Most claims of gain are with referance to a 1/2 wave dipole, ie:3dB gain over a 1/2 wave dipole unless it states gain over dBi which is gain over an isotropic radiator. The length of a 1/4 wave at 156.8mHz ch16 is 478mm, a 1/2 wave dipole consists of a 1/4 wave radiating element stacked over a 1/4 wave ground. These are the most common type of antenna used as they do not require any external earthing or ground plane which is often dificult to facilitate on a fibreglass boat
 

duck-n-pond

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 27, 2003
Messages
124
Re: VHF ant info

ThomWV "If you could increase the power of your radio from its current 25 watts to 100 watts, or even a thousand watts, it would not increase your maximum range by a single inch." Or at least with referance to increasing power via changing antenna gain. Glad you said that as most people don't believe it. Also, I have known people to crank up power on transmitters but don't realize that their recievers still have the same sensitivity. I have been out in fringe areas with various antennas, and unity gain works as well as anything (this is with referance to omnidirectional, not directionals like yagi or corner reflector). Though it may make a differance in a FEW instances, most users would not see much differance in 6db and 3db, esp on water. I have gotten 50 miles and know fisherman who have gotten 100+ miles, but only through a mountain based repeater or base station. AS for mountaing the antenna close to radio, this would be more of a concern in a duplex (Tx and Rx same time) rather than in a simplex (Tx or Rx) system. Also, I belive, like ThomWV, that antenna gain is with referance to UNITY gain. Agreed, get GOOD quality. A cheap antenna will, in short time, leave you with nothing to talk about. Also, if you are cutting cables and installing the connector yourself, use the correct crimper and test the system with a VSWR meter.
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

I would like to express my appreciation once more to ThomWV for all the effort in that post. I have learned alot and keep referring to it as I think on the subject or get confused. It was a real down to earth type of explaination and that was just what the doc ordered. Learning as I go with help from this board.
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: VHF ant info

I'm really glad it helped you out. In a way I hate to write up something like that because its inevidible that I will make a mistake somewhere. As it turns out I've have been pretty lucky in finding places that explained pretty well so I'm just passing along my understanding. I'm no electrical engineer by any means and an awful lot of its magic to me as well.<br /><br />By the way, I thought I'd mention this, as illegal as it is. I have a 2-meter radio in my truck and I modified it so that its range of frequencys is enlarged. I can use it to receive or transmit on the marine frequencys and not only that but it has user named memory channels so I have all of the marine channels saved in it. This particular radio has a power output of 55 watts if I remember correctly. The radio was made by ICOM, as are my other radios. I used it on the boat one time, when my main radio was back at ICOM to have the MMSI programmed into it. 55 Watts doesn't make any real difference.<br /><br />Well, that's not true. OK, here I go shooting my big mouth off again.<br /><br />Tonight go out to your car, not early, maybe sometime after about 10 or so. Turn on the radio and put it on AM. Now just scan down the dial. Did you pick up about ten thousand stations? Did some fade in and out and did you sometimes actually here two or more stations at the same time? Sure you did, unless there were a lot of storms around you heard all sorts of stations from all over the place.<br /><br />Think about your boat's radio. Its not AM, its FM, and the frequency it operates on is about 150 times as high as the AM. Those two radios have much different characteristics. Did you ever notice this about your radio, you will never hear more than one station at a time on your boat's radio. If two radios are transmitting at the same time it is the one who's remaining signal strength is greatest when it gets to your antenna that you will hear, not the loessor one. If they both began with the same power most of the time you will hear the closer one as it blocks out a transmitter situated farther away if they try to send at the same time. So knowing that you can see how having the most power to start with could have its advantages, but in truth its an advantage you never actually need. Besides that, its illegal to put out more than 25 watts. I just thought I'd mention it.<br /><br />What I think might be a lot more important is just saying, forthrightly, how a person who didn't care a thing in the world about how it all works should go about selecting an antenna. Here's how.<br /><br />Decide how long an antenna you want, be it 4 feet or 8 feet. Don't even bother thinking about anything else. Get out one of the major catalogs, one that sells antennas by Shakespeare, and look at the list. They should be ordered by price. Just got up the list until you find the one that is the highest price you are willing to pay. If you get up to around the $100 mark then give some thought to just buying the best there is. When you do that put down that catalog and pick up the one by one of the places that sell antennas made by a company in Florida called Digital Antennas. They are the best Marine antennas made but they cost a few (not all that much) dollars more than the Shakespeares. If you want a 4-foot one get the 528VW, if you want an 8-foot one get the 529VW. There are other companys that make antennas they designate for the marine market. Forget all of them other than if you happen to run across one made by Raytheon. They made a very good line of antennas for just a couple of years and then quit.<br /><br />Thom
 

Searenity

Cadet
Joined
Apr 21, 2002
Messages
26
Re: VHF ant info

WOW looks like you guys got a handle on the gain factor, but one thing I might add is you need to double your power just to gain a "s" unit (signal strenth of some one recieving you) So basically if your transmitting with 50 watts you need a hundred to gain a unit, then you need two hundred to get another. Very important to solder all your connecters especially on a boat. Also you can get a swr meter that will measure your reflected power(portion of your sinal that is being fed back into your radio), which if it is too high can result in poor performance and eventually blow up your radio. I am presently a ham with a extra class license, but this stuff is from my CB days . Take care happy and safe boating
 

Stumpknocker

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
774
Re: VHF ant info

Well, an update on my radio situation. I installed the 8' antenna on the 3' mast which gives me 12 feet over the water on my 15' CC "basic boat". I used the Gold plated brass PL-259 ThomWV advised of and was that ever easy and neat! No soldering! YES! <br /><br />I picked up the Coast Guard from ST Petersburg area over 80 miles away and some ship offshore of St. Pete on channel 68. It was garbled but I heard them. My boat was parked between two large metal storage buildings (commercial) when I tested the rec portion of the radio. Can't wait to get out on the ocean next week and see the difference.
 
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