wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

[imported_TheMan]

Well gentlemen, I finally got around to putting my acquired parts together onto the boat.

Took it out for a test drive on Thursday. Hit 48 mph right off the bat, which is pretty good given what I've been at before (tops ~42 with 2 barrel).

After running a while I checked the oil and it was rather milky. Didn't have the problem before i swapped and the only changes were the heads, intake, and carb.

Given those options, I suspected the intake was the problem. I didn't give this much thought when doing it, but I torqued the manifold to the 11 ft.lbs specified per the Edelbrock 2114 installation procedures. After I found the water in the oil I went back and looked at my original torque for the old manifold. It used to be 40 ft.lbs on 12 bolts.. now i have 11 ft.lbs on 8 bolts.

I suspect this is my problem and it didn't seal the water jackets, but do you have any thoughts? Does anyone that did this upgrade remember what torque they used?

Thanks for any input.

 

[imported_TheMan]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Also, in case anyone is going to ask, i torqued the heads in three series following the pattern from mercruiser. Went something like 22, 45, 65 on the bolts.

Used new gaskets on everything (cleaned surfaces) and sealed the ends of the intake with RTV.

 

[imported_TheMan]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Hate to keep responding to my own post, but i noticed I forgot to indicate the upgrades for those that weren't aware/don't remember.

1990-1991 block (no balance shaft). Stock cam.
Vortec Heads.
Edelbrock 2114 Performer Intake.
Edelbrock 1409 Carburetor, #1485 calibration kit, richer metering rods..

 

[wca_tim]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I'm suprised no one answered your questions. I'm assuming that your bottom end is sound (no cracks from before) and that the heads were from a reliable source and checked out... also that your (exhaust) manifolds are in good shape. It doesn't take a ton of water to make oil look milky. Are you certain that you couldn't have gotten any water in there during the assembly somehow? worth asking...

First thing, don't run it that way!

second I suspect that if the above assumptions are correct, you're right on track that the intake is the most likely culprit. When you take it apart you may be able to see where it was leaking. WHen you put it back on, I like to use a little spray adhesive on the head side to hold the gaskets in place while I get the bolts in, etc... and don't put the end pieces from the gasket kit in, use a ca. 1/4 inch bead of rtv black silicone. I'd be wary of torqing an aluminum manifold much if any beyond manufacturers reccomendations - aluminum isn't nearly as srtong as steel and will crack if you overtorque it.

I'm no expert, but that's where I would start.... and I would get the water and oil out of the ebgine as soon as possible. I might also run rotella T oil (buy by the gallon at autoparts store for 12-13), it has a much more robust detergent and additive package and will handle a little more water than many conventional automotive oils. Hopefully someone else will chime in with further advice.

 

[z284u2try]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Did that carb/intake increase the height overall from the stock 2 barrel? Did you reuse the stock 2 barrel flame arrestor?

I have a 4.3 98 that does 53 mph now gps. I am questioning if I would see much improvement switch to that intake/carb setup.

 

[John_S]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

If the V6 vortec is like the V8, it should have significantly lower torque specs for the intake manifold than the "standard" intake used with the old heads. I used the expensive stock GM intake gasket vs aftermarket, and went through 3-steps to get to final torque. RTV on the ends, but no sealer. It had locator tabs, and specificly said NOT to use sealers.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/tech_center/install/2000/2114.pdf

You didnt have to dismount the riser's??

 

[imported_TheMan]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Wooh. Quite a few questions and comments. Thanks for piping in. Sorry about my long response in advance:

I didn't have any water in the oil problems prior to any of the upgrades. While I'm sure there was some condensation in the block, given the milk shake I had i'm fairly sure it was more than the condensate. Block and manifolds are fine. Need to check the spark plugs again, but no evidence of steam cleaning when i checked before. I would think this eliminates concerns about the exhaust manifolds at least since the water got in during operation?

The heads were in good condition with no cracks. Although i didn't have them pressure tested, I inspected them quite thoroughly. I'm not going to say it's definitely not a problem, but I highly doubt it. I also lapped the valves and seats before assembling the heads.

I checked the compression after I re-assembled the engine. Had relatively consistent numbers around 130 psi for all cylinders... but I'm fairly sure I need new rings as it should be higher.

Anyway, after I went back to shore following the test, I took the boat home, ran some engine flush in the motor and drained out the milk shake. I then retorqued the manifold to 40 ft.lbs, changed the oil filter, and refilled with fresh oil. I use Rotella T SW30 in the engine. I would probably use 40, but they didn't have it.

I ran the engine in the driveway after replacing the oil to hopefully flush the water off any bearing surfaces. I was checking the dipstick frequently while it was running for evidence of water in the oil, but did not see any. Though at idle, i'm not sure if there would be enough activity to emulsify it.

I'm planning to take the boat for another test run with the main intent of monitoring the engine oil. If I notice any water then I am going to disassemble the whole thing, re-check the components, and re-assemble it. (Yes, I could disassemble the whole thing first, reassemble, then test drive but I'm interested in the cause just as much as it working right).

As John S noted, Edelbrock calls for the original GM intake gasket that I think has rubber rings around the ports. I had ordered most of my gaskets from Summit because I had a gift card and they didn't carry the original gasket. I ended up using a FelPro gasket instead. I realize this could be a problem too since the OEM makes recommendations for a reason, and if the increased torque doesn't seal than I will be heading to NAPA to try and get the original.. ALSO TO NOTE: The cast iron Vortec intake manifold is torqued to 35 ft.lbs per Service Manual 18, so 5 ft.lbs less than the old style. Still 24 ft.lbs more than the Edelbrock recommendation. 11 ft.lbs really isn't much, but I'll let you know my results.

z28, I haven't noticed any changes in height. The 2 barrel spark arrestor won't fit a 4 barrel carb. I have a custom 14" Moroso air filter that was fitted with two separate screen sizes to arrest sparks. It doesn't have the USCG stamp, but I can pretty much gaurantee it exceeds the ASTM spec. If you have the 2 barrel right now and get 53 mph per gps, i would think you might see an improvement of 2-3 mph at most... I probably wouldn't bother with it unless you need some more umph on the low end.

Tail Gunner, i did have to disassemble the manifolds and risers... Like I said, I don't think its the problem, but I will definitely check if I still have water in the oil after the next run.

Thanks everyone. Feel free to put up any more comments.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: wca_tim, shabah,.. others? 4.3 upgrade w/water in oil

Sounds like you're making some good progress since last year and that you've almost got it up and running. That's great.

Don is of course right on not using any sealant on the intake gaskets - and you shouldn't. My current toys have the manifolds and heads port matched to the gaskets and so I use a light dusting of permatex high temp gastet sealant / adhesive to firmly locate the gaskets before dropping the manifold on.

I would NOT overtorque that manifold. You're liable to crack it - especially if there's something in there that is making the surface uneven. If the surfaces are good and clean, the gaskets are right in place and evenly torqued they should seal just fine at the proper torque.

On the compression. I know that 130 seems a little low, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that you have a problem if they're all within 10 psi or so of one another. you changed heads, used different head gaskets, etc... and all of that can make a difference. run again after putting a couple of squirts of oil in the cylinders... if they go up your rings are leaking some, but if not much, probably not... imho.

I know the oil topic has been beat to death so many times it isn't funny... I run Rotella T 15-40... great additive package for performance engines...

Hope it stays dry for you tonight... even if it does, I would probably replace the intake gaskets and torque the intake to specifications...
but that's just me...

Which prop do you have on it?