What is the point using washers that will hang loose?

humleridder

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1995 Johnson 60hp
Got new rubber mount (S/N 436394 or 31) due to bad shape... also bad: two rubber washers (S/N 313580 or 34).

Inside wholes in the washers are so big, that they fit loose on the outside of the flanges of the rubber mount like a donut around a finger and do no good.

Please explain why?
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F_R

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I'm not sure what you are describing, but as I remember, the washers prevent the mount from pulling off the bolts in event of failure of the rubber. Maybe we need is an actual picture of what you are dealing with.
 

dingbat

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Washers are used to distribute/ transfer pressure/ force over a larger area.

Looking at the design, looks to be some sort of a vibration mount / isolation bushing
 

F_R

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Washers are used to distribute/ transfer pressure/ force over a larger area.

Looking at the design, looks to be some sort of a vibration mount / isolation bushing


Well sure, that is exactly what it is. It holds the entire upper end of the motor. The whole thing is bonded as one piece. But if the rubber fails the bolts would pull right through if it were nothing to stop them. Hence the washers.
 

humleridder

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The reasoning concerning the failure of the rubber mount assembly sounds good... and not something I thought of myself.

However it wont work as an explanation here - I will emphasize that the following things:
- the washer are made of reinforced flexible rubber (a bit like the stuff a tire is made from) - so there is no metal involved and therefor it will not hold the engine.
- the hole in this rubber washer is just big enough to surround the flange of the rubber mount assembly - so it will not be held/compressed when tightening the bolts and thereby obviously not be able to distribute/transfer pressure or vibrations.

I will gladly find pictures to explain further.
 

humleridder

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In the two picture I have circled the two dimensions.

1. The circumference on the flange of the rubber mount assembly
2. The inner diameter of the rubber washer

2 bolts each goes through (in this order):
- retaining plate
- washer (rubber)
- rubber mount
- steering arm assembly
- nut

All this can be seen in my link in post #2

The weird thing is that the washers inner hole fits outside on the flange of the rubber mount assembly.
Therefor the washer is not held in place between retaining plate and rubber mount - nor is it able to take any vibrations since it is just hanging like a donut around a finger.

I have notice by looking through different diagrams for different years, that some earlier version also had a metal washer installed in combination with the rubber washer. But that does not explain things.
 

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interalian

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Probably there to limit movement within the assembly. Post a photo of how it all goes together - might be instructive.
 

F_R

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Probably there to limit movement within the assembly. Post a photo of how it all goes together - might be instructive.


I think that is a good guess. When forward thrust is applied at the lower unit, the upper end moves aft with the flexibility of the rubber in the mount. The rubber washers might limit that aft movement. Steel washers might bang metal against metal and make for noisy, harsh operation under full power.

That is my guess, which together with $1.49 + tax will get you a cup of coffee at the gas station up the road.
 

Joe Reeves

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Having retired in 1991, I'm not familiar with your engine's design, however..... I would wonder if that mount is more a compression type mount rather than one that most of us are familiar with on the older engines. If so, the oversize smooth metal washers purpose might be to protect the rubber from constantly vibrating against the uneven aluminum surfaces to wear out prematurely.

What comes to mind is the old 9.5hp models of the 1960s that has a couple motor mounts that just sat there, surrounded by the aluminum housing, bolted to nothing... a shock absorber of sorts.

Phone the factory and ask one of the engineers. We would be interested in their response.
 
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humleridder

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F_R that would also be my best guess. It is just still weird that the wholes in the washers are not made to fit the bolts to sit tight between the bolt head and the metal tube part whitch is part of the rubber mount assembly.

I have noticed that the rubber mount assembly has a sligthly smaller diameter on the most outer part, which just allows for the rubber washer to fit here. I guess that makes it somewhat sit semi-tight in that position when all tightened together.

In the attached picture here the following applies:
- the rubber mount assembly is made up from a metal outer piece (the black piece you can see), then some rubber inside the outer piece, then two metal tubes inside the rubber to accomodate the two long bolts. The rubber "glues" the outher piece and the metal tubes together and stretches out along the metal tube on both sides of the out piece.
- the rubber within the rubber mount assembly obviously dampens vibrations between engine and boat
- rubber mount assembly is attached to the upper part of the engine through the wholes that you can look through on the picture
- the long bolts go through the steering arm assembly which is connected to the part that sits on the boat. So the boat would be on the right in this picture.
- the shiny piece is just a retaining plate. This makes the bolts move together and also makes sure that the upper part of the engine cannot slide off the bolts in case the rubber mount assembly comes apart (since the gluing/molding of the rubber mount assembly is vital)

If you look closely you see that I have not put the bolts all the way through. Just to the right of the shiny retaining plate along the top bolt in the picture you see the diameter of the bolt itself (it has an uneven surface at this end to make a press fitting inside the rubber mount assembly, I guess - just in case you wondered) . If you continue right you see the rubber washer and just to the right of the rubber washer you have the flange of the rubber mount assembly - this has a larger diameter than the bolt. The rubber washer sits on the outside of this larger diameter rubber flange (with the metal tube inside it). However, as mentioned, the rubber flange has a slightly smaller diameter inside the rubber washer (not visible due to the washer) than it has where you can see it to the right of the rubber washer. This allows for the rubber washer to stay there when tightened.

My best guess for purpose of the rubber washer would be, that this rubber washer protects the retaining plate and the rubber mount assembly from touching each other in cases where the engine really strains/bends the rubber mount assembly. It is still a guess and if I am right, it still poses a question towards why the engineers haven't just used a rubber washer with a diameter that would fit the bolt instead of making this special outer diameter on the rubber mount assembly to keep the rubber washer in place.

If a rubber washer with a smaller hole (to fit the bolt exactly) was used to fit them in between the retaining plate and the flange, the washer would be held in place in between like any other washer and rubber mount assembly would be more simple.

Now staying along my own guess toward the purpose of the rubber washer.... I need to find an explanation on why the rubber washer is engineered to be mounted in this peculiar way. If indeed the washer had been mounted with a smaller hole as I suggested, maybe the rubber washer would come apart quicker as it would get squeezed by moving metal on both sides (retaining plate on one side and metal tube on the other side). In the solution the engineers came up with it is only squeezed by metal on one side (the retaining plate).

Please let me know if you think my guessing seems plausible or if you have some other thoughts on the matter.
 

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F_R

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Nah, if the rubber washer were to fit the bolt diameter, it would be between the shiny plate and the inner metal tube of the mount. Then when you torque the bolts down tight, it would be crushed to smithereens between those two parts.

I'm sayin' that interalian nailed it. It is there to limit movement under full power.
 

humleridder

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It looks like you back my reasoning on why the rubber washer is not mounted in between the shiny plate and the metal tube. I'm not sure though what Interalien means... but at the same time not ruling out he might be right. Maybe we are actually really guessing the same reason for that use of the rubber washer:

TO PREVENT THE SHINY PLATE FROM BANGING THE RUBBER AGAINS THE RUBBER MOUNT ASSEMBLY WHEN IT MOVES DUE TO POWER CHANGES.


Otherwise (if you dont agree):
What other parts would be limited? and in which way? Keeping in mind, that the rubber washer is only held in place by a tiny rubber edge on the side towards the rubber mount assembly.
 

racerone

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They used this set up for 30 years.----No need to overthink the reason why.---Assemble it and go fishing.----Maybe I will have a look at one or more of these midsections to see if there is an obvious reason for it.
 

F_R

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It looks like you back my reasoning on why the rubber washer is not mounted in between the shiny plate and the metal tube. I'm not sure though what Interalien means... but at the same time not ruling out he might be right. Maybe we are actually really guessing the same reason for that use of the rubber washer:

TO PREVENT THE SHINY PLATE FROM BANGING THE RUBBER AGAINS THE RUBBER MOUNT ASSEMBLY WHEN IT MOVES DUE TO POWER CHANGES.


Otherwise (if you dont agree):
What other parts would be limited? and in which way? Keeping in mind, that the rubber washer is only held in place by a tiny rubber edge on the side towards the rubber mount assembly.


Exactly. Prop thrust tends to slide the mount fore and aft on the tubes in the center (allowed by the resiliency of the rubber mount). The rubber washers limit the amount of movement and prevent metal to metal contact when they reach the allowed movement.

I think we've come to agreement on it.
 

interalian

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.----No need to overthink the reason why.---Assemble it and go fishing.----

Indeed.

But another thought: they designed the bonded mount to be soft, tuned to a harmonic the engine has at a specific speed (likely idle) in order to quash harshness or vibration. But the mount is too soft to absorb full torque so they install the rubber washers to prevent metal to metal contact in these cases.
 

humleridder

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Sounds good. Thankyou for your thoughts and opinions on this little tricky game of understanding the engineers of outboard engines.
 
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