What to do next?

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
So a few years back I had a major problem with the engine in my powerboat leaving me dead on the lake on a Sunday afternoon. I was towed to a nearby marina where I left the boat to be checked out. The next day the mechanic called and asked I come down and see something. The engine had a severe knock in the lower end so I decided to have him replace the engine. Thus began a long line of mishaps which has landed me to my current situation. More on this later.... After 2 months in the shop I get my boat back with a new(ly rebuilt) "engine" ready to hit the water. I follow the normal break-in steps as prescribed by the mechanic but by this time it's winter and time to winterize.

I winterize everything properly and when spring comes I'm ready to hit the lake. I completed the remainder of the break in procedure and then begin to really start putting the engine through it's paces. Well as luck would have it, my first jaunt in the "WOT" land ends with us, yet again, stuck in the middle of the lake dead in the water on a Sunday. Luckily it's early in the day (and the boating season) and my trusty mechanic is on duty. I give him a call and tell him what has happened. He says he'll be right there to tow us back to the shop. After another month or so of him hassling with the motor supplier they ship another new(ly rebuilt) engine. The engine is installed, the boat is launched, and again I start the break in. The engine performs ok; I say "ok" because quite frankly I haven't had anywhere near the performance the original boat had.

Along comes November and some friends have come out from California to visit. The air is still pleasant so we decide to treat them to one of the little pleasures of living on the lake. Driving the boat to dinner. We all hop on and enjoy a pleasant cruise to the restaurant. After diner we climb back aboard and head towards home. Since I had completed my break in I decided to show off a bit. Our friends had been on our boat before we moved but in California almost all of the lakes are governed by a 35 mph speed limit. So I decided to show then just what the boat can do WOT. Everything is fine up until I start making the turn off the main channel towards our marina. Suddenly that old familiar sputter sputter and yet again the engine dies leaving us stranded, dead in the water, at 11 PM, and everyone I know has winterized their boat. One thing I will say about paddling a 20ft power boat several hundred yards is that you never want to do it. We get back to our slip after an hour of paddling (rotating out as people tire out) and the next day I call again to my trusty mechanic who comes and retrieves the boat. This time instead of replacing he decided to crack into it and see what happened. The first thing he noticed is that all the head bolts are loose. then he finds that the head gasket has blown. Figuring this is the extent of the problem he puts everything back together properly and assures me that the engine will not give us any more troubles now that HE has fixed it. And he was right until.....

July of this year we dropped the boat off to a local boat shop for some upholstery work. Some friends of ours took their boat to this same boat shop for an engine replacement (improper winterization) and were extremely happy with the service even though the replacement ran him $8000. The shop is run by a husband and wife team. The husband is the mechanic and the wife does the upholstery so I figured I'd kill 2 birds and while the boat was in for the upholstery I'd have the engine checked out as well because I had never been that impressed with the performance and I had been noticing an increased fuel smell as if it were running rich. It was also a perfect time to have the work done as we were getting ready to visit Portugal for a couple weeks. Upon our return I was greeted with a phone call from the mechanic wanting me to call him before he does any more work. "Oh Great. Now what?" I think. I call the mechanic and he informs me that while testing the compression he noticed 2 things.

1. The #3 cylinder was at 50PSI (the rest were around 150)
2. There was water in the #5 cylinder.

He decided at that point to stop all work (including upholstery) until after talking with me. We ended up having the upholstery work done and I decided that this winter I would tear into the engine myself and see what is going on. Perhaps it would be an easy fix.

So, the week between Christmas and New Years I was off work. Perfect time to tear into it. I enlisted a friend to help out and we got all they way down to the head that had the initial problem. We pulled it off and took it down to the boat shop. Turns out there are at least 3 warped exhaust valves and who knows what else. On the advice of the mechanic I pull the other head and take both down to a local race shop to have the heads tested. Here's the results:

1. Both heads are the same casting but different years
2. Both heads are vortec heads but the original ones weren't
3. Both heads were built for flat tappets and the enging uses rollers
4. And to top it off, one head is cracked (hence water in #5 cylinder)


So now I'm left pondering my options. It's pretty clear I'm in the market for new heads but now I wonder what I should do about the rest of the engine. Do I pull it and tear it apart as well? How hard is it to pull the drive? What all do I need?
 

Bondo

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Staff member
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Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,082
Re: What to do next?

This time instead of replacing he decided to crack into it and see what happened.

Ayuh,... Are you saying he did No forensic diagnosis to the 1st 2,..??

The problems, 1 thru 3 are pretty much irrevelant,.... although I don't understand #3...
#4 is of course a Problem...

My WAGuess is,... Your Fuel System is boogered up, causing a Lean condition leading to the motor self destructing at wot, due to Detonation...
How hard is it to pull the drive?

Kinda hard to say,... You haven't told Us what the drive is, nor the motor....
So far, all We know is, it's a Motor in a Boat....
 

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
Re: What to do next?

Ayuh,... Are you saying he did No forensic diagnosis to the 1st 2,..??

nope no forensics other than "yeah. it's broke"

The problems, 1 thru 3 are pretty much irrevelant,.... although I don't understand #3...
#4 is of course a Problem...

The valve spring tension is 65lbs on both heads. According to the guy at the machine shop they should be 85 for roller tappets. Also the pushrod guides are different from side to side. The odd bank has the guide on the rockers while the even bank has the guides there the rods pass through the heads. Also he said there are signs of wear on the rockers indicating that the push rods might be a little short and thus suited for flat tappets not rollers.

My WAGuess is,... Your Fuel System is boogered up, causing a Lean condition leading to the motor self destructing at wot, due to Detonation...

Sorry, yeah I forgot that part. the fuel system was definitely screwed too. The carb was gummed up and running lean. In addition to the stock carb a friend of mine is sending me a freshly rebuilt Edelbrock 1406 which I'm planning on using.


Kinda hard to say,... You haven't told Us what the drive is, nor the motor....
So far, all We know is, it's a Motor in a Boat....

[/quote]

Oops again sorry. I copied and pasted this from a different forum and meant to add the additional info. The boat is a 1996 Mariah Talari 209 open bow a Mercruiser 350 Magnum engine and alpha one drive.
 

Alpheus

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
1,759
Re: What to do next?

Who was the supplier of the remanned engines???
 

Philster

Captain
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
3,344
Re: What to do next?

ckgreenman

Do you know what 'lugging' an engine is?

Do you know how to trim your outdrive?

Do you know what your engine redline is and whether any of your engines ever reach the redline (max rpm range)?
 

FreeBeeTony

Captain
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
3,991
Re: What to do next?

You say the original heads were NOT vortec........did he install the right intake or try to get away with the original???

Maybe this caused your lean condition.......
 

ChrisCraftJohnny

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
187
Re: What to do next?

From my experience when you have this many problems with "other people's work".

You must start over at the begining. Go though every system. Clean everything. Check everything 100%.

And start with a new/rebuilt engine that you can trust. At this point from all the trouble you have had, don't bother to put in a ton of time and money working on an engine that was compromised.

When things are this messed up you must start fresh. It's the only sure way of knowing. and remember, it's gonna take a long while to do it right. You will not do all of this in a weekend.
 

FreeBeeTony

Captain
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
3,991
Re: What to do next?

From my experience when you have this many problems with "other people's work".

You must start over at the begining. Go though every system. Clean everything. Check everything 100%.

And start with a new/rebuilt engine that you can trust. At this point from all the trouble you have had, don't bother to put in a ton of time and money working on an engine that was compromised.

When things are this messed up you must start fresh. It's the only sure way of knowing. and remember, it's gonna take a long while to do it right. You will not do all of this in a weekend.

I have to agree with Johnny here!

Afetr all the problems/time spent/money spent I had with/on my original engine.......I would probably have been better off replacing it with a long block in the 1st place!!
 

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
Re: What to do next?

@Alpheus:
No I have no idea. Unfortunately even the installer is out of business too. I do know it WAS NOT Jasper because apparently at the time they did not carry a motor that cross referenced with my 350 Magnum. I'm going to try to dig through some of my paperwork and find it. I DID have a warranty (18 mo.) so if nothing else I ought to have the paperwork from that.

@Philster
No I don't know what lugging is. I THINK I know how to properly trim. No I don't know the red line other than what is displayed on the tach (and IIRC it doesn't show there either).

@FreeBeeTony
According to the guy at the machine shop the heads ARE vortec heads (casting 193 or 183 something like that) but don't have an air dam??? The intake is a 12 bolt not an 8. The intake that was installed is the original bowtie high rise (basically an edelbrock performer so I'm told).

@ChrisCraftJohnny
I'm inclined to agree with you and the more I think about it that's probably what I'm going to do. Luckily it's winter and too blasted cold to be on the water in an openbow so it's the perfect time. My only concern at this point is how to get the drive off and the engine out. I can't afford the $500-$600 in labor to have someone do it for me.

@FreeBeeTony
Unfortunately it WAS a long block. just not a brand new one. I tried to save some money by only spending $3500 and buying a rebuilt long block. A mistake I won't make again. I'll rebuild it myself before I do that again.
 

northernmerc

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
401
Re: What to do next?

That sounds like a nightmare of incompetence.

You speak of rebuilding this yourself. Do you have the tools, skills, and recent experience to do this? If not, don't throw good money after bad by trying to do it yourself. With all the questions you have raised about incompatible heads, push rods, lifters, intake manifolds, etc. you need to be very sure it is done right this time. Unless you really enjoy breaking down on the lake and spending money unnecessarily. Almost anyone can rebuild an engine that will run for a little while. But most people - including licensed mechanics - can't do it right.

My advice is to spend a little more and find a NEW long block made for marine applications (or as a much less desirable option, buy a rebuilt marine long block from a reputable rebuilder).
 

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
Re: What to do next?

That sounds like a nightmare of incompetence.

You speak of rebuilding this yourself. Do you have the tools, skills, and recent experience to do this? If not, don't throw good money after bad by trying to do it yourself. With all the questions you have raised about incompatible heads, push rods, lifters, intake manifolds, etc. you need to be very sure it is done right this time. Unless you really enjoy breaking down on the lake and spending money unnecessarily. Almost anyone can rebuild an engine that will run for a little while. But most people - including licensed mechanics - can't do it right.

My advice is to spend a little more and find a NEW long block made for marine applications (or as a much less desirable option, buy a rebuilt marine long block from a reputable rebuilder).

I've done engines before and have most of the tools needed. The ones I don't I can either borrow or have someone else do the work. My plan is to do as much of the actual labor myself and asking a lot of questions along the way. Anything I can't do (like the head work) I'll leave to someone more experienced. I can probably do most of the assembly myself provided I have all the tolerances. I do plan on buying new head castings and having the guy at the race shop assemble everything. I know valve work is something I'm not prepared to take on. Lower end should be no big deal as longs as the parts I have (or buy) are of the right type and quality.

That being said, if either my boat mechanic (the new one not the old guy who stuck me with this motor) or the race shop mechanic can get me a good deal on a motor they trust then I'll go that route.
 

Bondo

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Staff member
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Messages
71,082
Re: What to do next?

The intake is a 12 bolt not an 8.

Ayuh,... Then you absolutely do NOT have Vortec heads,... Not from Chevy...
Chevy Vortecs come in 2 casting #s,... 906,+ 069....

I have little doubt that the Boogered Fuel system,...
Is atleast the Root cause of the Dead motors,...
The set up of the boat,+ your lack of checking it out might have helped it along...

Anyways,......
To pull the drive, shift to forward,...
Pull the pin from the trim rams, then the 6 nuts holding the drive..
Then Pull,... It should be Your's at that point,... It's about 80lbs...

To pull the motor,...
Unhook all the wiring,+ plumbing,...
Pull the lag bolts from the front motor mounts,+ the 2 big bolts at the aft motor mounts,...
Then lift straight up,+ Out....

The factory manuals are available for download up in the Adults Only section of this forum,...

Raul at Rapido motors can probably have a long block motor sitting at your back door for a reasonable price,...
He's got a whole bunch of satisfied customers who post here...

Good Luck...
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: What to do next?

The 193's are the TBI heads used from '87-'95. They are NOT Vortec heads. They are a low RPM (under 5000) head typically used on trucks, which means they are OK for a boat but nowhere close to a Vortec. What may be confusing your latest engine guy is the fact that they use the centerbolt valve covers just like the Vortecs. They use the 12 bolt intake.

If I were you I would keep hunting for a third engine guy, neither of the two you've described sound too promising .....
 

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
Re: What to do next?

The 193's are the TBI heads used from '87-'95. They are NOT Vortec heads. They are a low RPM (under 5000) head typically used on trucks, which means they are OK for a boat but nowhere close to a Vortec. What may be confusing your latest engine guy is the fact that they use the centerbolt valve covers just like the Vortecs. They use the 12 bolt intake.

If I were you I would keep hunting for a third engine guy, neither of the two you've described sound too promising .....

Well he did mention they were a "crossover" type casting and that it's technically a vortec but not really. and yes he said 906s were the actual vortecs. He said he was going to do more research and at this point I'm just not sure what heads I need to put back on there. About all I know is that I need a whole new valve train and quite possibly a whole new lower end since the pistons are probably cast not hypereutectic.

I'm going to grab the block casting this weekend and I'll post them if it will help.


Edit: @45auto Slidell huh? My wife and I were married by the JoP there when I was stationed at Keesler AFB in Biloxi Ms.
 

FreeBeeTony

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May 15, 2002
Messages
3,991
Re: What to do next?

@Alpheus:
@FreeBeeTony
According to the guy at the machine shop the heads ARE vortec heads (casting 193 or 183 something like that) but don't have an air dam??? The intake is a 12 bolt not an 8. The intake that was installed is the original bowtie high rise (basically an edelbrock performer so I'm told).

193/183 are not GM vortec heads.....maybe aftermarket? If so, did the original intake line-up with the heads?

@Alpheus:
@FreeBeeTony
Unfortunately it WAS a long block. just not a brand new one. I tried to save some money by only spending $3500 and buying a rebuilt long block. A mistake I won't make again. I'll rebuild it myself before I do that again.

If this was the longblock installed by the orig mech, I would start with a "new" longblock, that's what I did.......I got a reman'd from Rapido and installed all my externals.
 

proshadetree

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
1,887
Re: What to do next?

Dude pull your block and check it out.It may be fine.Do you see marks or lines in cylinders?Do you see hone marks?Plastigage your crank.Check rods and mains.
Id drop in a new oil pump seals ect.If you have a good machinist follow his recommendations on the heads.Now if your going to have to pay someone to do all this work a long block looks great.By the way not all marine engines use special pistons.some are cast and carry the same replacement number as a truck or car.Do your own home work.If it were mine this is the path id follow.
I dropped in a 96 305 truck engine with all my marine parts.Heads block crank pistons all truck.Never tore into it just seals.Ran like a scalded hound all summer.
 

Alpheus

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Messages
1,759
Re: What to do next?

3500 bucks for a rebuilt longblock that's insane. Call Rapidos. I had a longblock delivered to my front door in 4 days and only cost me 1600 bucks shipped.
 

slasmith1

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Dec 2, 2008
Messages
1,028
Re: What to do next?

3500 bucks for a rebuilt longblock that's insane. Call Rapidos. I had a longblock delivered to my front door in 4 days and only cost me 1600 bucks shipped.

I bet he is including the labor cost to install it.
 

Bondo

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Messages
71,082
Re: What to do next?

3500 bucks for a rebuilt longblock that's insane. Call Rapidos. I had a longblock delivered to my front door in 4 days and only cost me 1600 bucks shipped.
I bet he is including the labor cost to install it.
I've done engines before and have most of the tools needed. The ones I don't I can either borrow or have someone else do the work. My plan is to do as much of the actual labor myself

Nope,... Don't appear so....
 

ckgreenman

Seaman
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
74
Re: What to do next?

Actually yes, that does include labor ($1000). The long block was still ridiculous at $2500.

@Bond-0: The engines I'VE done before were automotive. There shouldn't be a whole lot of difference in the actual process.
 
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