What's it mean to ground something?

erikpn

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A question so silly I feel bad asking it, I should have figured it out long ago.. but what does it mean to ground something? My outboard won't crank, and I am trying to figure out if it's the ignition switch, the starter solenoid, or the starter. I read this about how to test the ignition switch with a voltmeter:

Disconnect from the solenoid the wire that comes from the ignition switch. It connects to a push-on spade connector on the solenoid. Fuel-injected cars have two spade connectors on the solenoid. In that case, the ignition switch wire will be the heavier of the two wires. Disconnect the wire, then use your voltmeter to check for 12v at that wire. Put the positive lead to the wire and ground the negative lead, then have your helper turn the key to start. When your helper does this, you should read 12v at the wire.

Do I just stick the negative lead onto a random metal point of the boat, such as the engine block? Do I stick it to a wire connecting to the negative terminal of the battery? Do I stick it into the dirt? Help!
 

Vic.S

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

In terms of your outboard it refers to the negative connection being made to the body of the engine.

so where it says "ground the negative lead" it means connect it to the cylinder block or any other part of the engine which is (or should be) connected to the battery negative. Or any other battery negative connection for that matter.
 

Texasmark

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Vic is right on. The term probably comes from power line company jargon. Everything (voltages-power) in the power company business is referenced to the earth; hence the "ground" you walk on. If someone talks about an overhead powerline being 7,000 volts for example, it means that the difference in potential between it and the ground is 7000 volts, a unit of electricity.

In portable systems, some part of the system has to be used as the common (reference) point. In auto's it's the auto's chassis and in marine engines it's the block of the engine. The battery that powers everything has two terminals, either of which could be referred to as the "ground" or reference terminal. Common current practice is to use the negative terminal as the common point so it is connected to the system ground, the engines block. Then all system voltages are measured with respect to it just as is the case in power utilities.

HTH

Mark
 

Chris1956

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Mark, I agree with the first paragraph in your posting, but not the second paragraph.

Batteries have two connections or poles, one is called positive and the other negative. On vehicles and boats, all electric devices need to be connected to both battery poles. To save the cost of pulling two wires to each electronic device, manufacturers connect one pole of the battery to the engine block metal, and to the metal body of the vehicle, if it has one. This allows a single wire to power each device, provided the other connection is connected (or grounded) to the metal of the engine or body. Whether "Ground" the proper and precise term to use to refer to this wiring system, I am not sure. Perhaps an EE can give us the straight dope.

BTW - In the US, the negative pole of the battery is usually grounded. Manufacturers in other contries like Britain, may ground the positive side of the batery. The Brits would refer to this positive ground system to be "positive earth", where "Earth" is a term for ground.
 

madgadget

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Never come across as positive system in the UK. Apparently only pre 1950 you may find such a system, but that's a lot of time before my existence haha. :) Most likely would be the old 6v system as well.

Ground is simply the reference point from which all other voltages are measured. So it is the correct term. Usually ground can also be called earth, but sometimes you have something called a 'floating ground', and will be separate from 'earth' for various reasons.

Just noticed you can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
 

14ftgrumman

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

What Chris is describing is called "chassis ground". Where there is a ground connection from the battery to frame, then all other grounds can be made almost anywhere,thus saving money on wire. And why it's sometimes a challenge to find a bad ground that is causing trouble.
 

madgadget

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

It should be noted that its recommend to ground all metal parts of a boat to the engine/outboard. In the extreme unlikely chance your ever hit by lightning you'll fair much better this way.
 

Chris1956

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Hey Mad, I had a 1974 Triumph motorcycle with a positive earth electrical system. It was 12V.

Unconnected Batterys do not have a "ground" or reference as you have cited. They have positive and negative poles. Voltage is measured across those poles.

Some commercial power companies use the earth as a return for their distribution system. The power company will pull three cables to the house. Two are oposite phases of the AC current. The third cable is a neutral, which is the return to the power company, but is also connected to ground at the house. You can measure voltage potential across ground and one of the hot wires, in this type of system.
 

Texasmark

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Mark, I agree with the first paragraph in your posting, but not the second paragraph.

Batteries have two connections or poles, one is called positive and the other negative. On vehicles and boats, all electric devices need to be connected to both battery poles. To save the cost of pulling two wires to each electronic device, manufacturers connect one pole of the battery to the engine block metal, and to the metal body of the vehicle, if it has one. This allows a single wire to power each device, provided the other connection is connected (or grounded) to the metal of the engine or body. Whether "Ground" the proper and precise term to use to refer to this wiring system, I am not sure. Perhaps an EE can give us the straight dope.

BTW - In the US, the negative pole of the battery is usually grounded. Manufacturers in other contries like Britain, may ground the positive side of the batery. The Brits would refer to this positive ground system to be "positive earth", where "Earth" is a term for ground.

Chris, re-read my post! We are saying the same thing. Yea verily, cars have the return to the block too but it is connected to the vehicle's chassis which puts all the metal parts at the same potential. Since boats don't usually have a chassis (alum/steel excluded) the chassis part is omitted.

On which terminal of the battery is used as the ground reference, a lot of older farm tractors used positive grounds because (as I got the story) the direction of current through the points with this setup caused less pitting. I'm not sure but I think some older cars were wired that way also for the same reason. Later as solid state ignitions were introduced, (again as the story goes) the negative terminal was connected to the ground reference out of convenience due to the availability of solid state devices and the polarity of the voltages required to operate them.

Thinking back, when I was a kid, in the mid '50's you had to pay attention to the car you were working on (messing with) as some were wired one way and some the other as I recall. I think GM had the pos ground, or maybe it was Ford. That was the reason for the + and - terminals being swapped (located on opposite ends of the battery) on some batteries.....been a long time, but you still have to be careful when buying a battery (today) to get the one with the terminal location that matches your vehicle's wiring layout because you can still buy them either way. The mind is the first to go.

Thinking along, I think the Ford design was reversed and for a time the batteries were identified like 24F or 27F (maybe still are....haven't paid attention lately.....just look at the terminals) to indicate the different terminal arrangement.

Mark
 

14ftgrumman

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

The British positive earth side of this discussion brings up the inventor of the 3 way switch- John Lucas

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lindy46

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

The British positive earth side of this discussion brings up the inventor of the 3 way switch- John Lucas

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Speaking of Lucas, MG's up until the mid-60's were positive ground.
 

madgadget

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Also apparently according to what I have read chassis corrosion was worse on a positive grounded system.

Either way, glad its not done now as it just sounds wrong lol.
 

Chris1956

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Mark, I do not agree that we are saying the same thing. I consider grounding one pole of a battery to the chassis, block or frame simply a way for the manufacturer to save money, not as a DC electrical standard. There can be some electrolosis advantage in boats to this type of grounding, however.

In addition, commercial AC power companies use a ground return to save money on copper conductors. There are some safety advantages when you connect the neutral and ground connectors together at a residence, however.
 

Texasmark

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Mark, I do not agree that we are saying the same thing. I consider grounding one pole of a battery to the chassis, block or frame simply a way for the manufacturer to save money, not as a DC electrical standard. There can be some electrolosis advantage in boats to this type of grounding, however.

In addition, commercial AC power companies use a ground return to save money on copper conductors. There are some safety advantages when you connect the neutral and ground connectors together at a residence, however.

Well, beins this is dragging on, and there is something to be gleaned from it by other interested parties, I'll ramble on.

We have 2 things to consider in wiring for our engine driven boats. One is the high current loop, which for most of us is the connection between the battery and starter since it draws 100-200 amperes when working. The other, as you said is electrolysis.

The former dictates that you minimize the length of the start circuit and maximize the wire size. Since the starter is mounted to the block of the engine (for my OB at least) the best place to put the return wire from the battery (- pole in today's US standard) is either on the starter shell, or on the block adjacent to it and there you have your "ground" reference for all the electronics associated with your engine. Mine goes to the shell with a jumper off to the block to insure adequate ground for the engine's electronics. The shell is ceramic (non conductive material), not metallic which would not need the extra jumper. My 90 hp Merc sucks about 125 amperes (rated) starting current so the wiring supplied with the engine to connect to the battery is 6AWG and is roughly 6' long.

Even though the engine is 6' from the battery , the 6AWG wire is usually adequate to insure that the engine and battery are at the same reference potential (call it ground) so external wiring like for accessories, lights and all, can come from the engine block or the battery terminal. I realize that if you have large cabin cruisers and all, you need to rethink the wiring especially since you may be running power inverters, air conditioners, and other high load circuits long distances.

My engine has Zinc sacrificial plates both on the mid-section of the lower unit and on the bottom of the clamp bracket. On the lower unit, the trim tab is also Zinc. The mid section has a grounding jumper between it and the clamp bracket. The clamp bracket is bolted onto the transom, aluminum in my case. So we have a nice tidy ground reference for all the metallic parts and if any eddy currents get going the Zinc is there to sacrifice.

Now, my hull could be my wiring ground reference, since it is a nice conductor (aluminum) and is connected to the ground reference, but it's not; I use the - terminal of the battery for all wiring other than engine and trolling motor (trolling motor/batteries is a totally separate circuit). On a bigger boat, or a plastic one, If I had too many wires to mount directly on the battery, I would mount a ground reference plate adjacent to the battery, as close as is practical, with adequately sized wiring to insure essentially a zero voltage difference between the two.

On non-related house power, but it is as I used it initially in explaining the term "ground", The NEC code that my house and power input are wired to specifies an 8' stake driven into the ground immediately adjacent to the input power/power distribution box. This is my neutral/ground reference for my house.

The transformer hanging on the utility pole has a single primary winding of 14kv and a dual, or center tapped secondary of 230v, or, using the center tap to supply 2 outputs of 115v per leg.

The transformer input utility wiring also carries a ground return (ac neutral) wire the same size as the hot lead. The return wire is also earth grounded at each utility pole to insure that voltages don't develop along the return wire that could pose a health threat.

The 3 secondary transformer wires are connected to my ac power distribution panel for usage as necessary, 230v for the high power loads, and 2 ea. 115v inputs for the light loads and everything is referenced to the earth you stand on, hence ground.

Some years ago, the third wire (safety ground) was added and was used to establish a ground reference on metallic cases of things powered by ac in the event the ac neutral accidentally developed a voltage. The ac return wire carries the same current as the hot lead (on 115v circuits) and could develop a voltage caused by the ac current used by the appliance, but the safety ground does not carry any current and hence develops no voltage as a result, remaining at the same potential as the ground reference in the power box; hence the user has no shock potential (theoretically). Course, with a lot of today's portable appliances with plastic cases, this becomes somewhat of a moot point.

Well, I guess we gleaned something from this.

Have a nice day,

Mark
 

14ftgrumman

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

BTW, Vis/s sig. line is wrong

If it ain't broke, you're not tryin'. Red Green
 

Silvertip

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Ground and neutral connections in a residence were added because the early "electricians" did not understand that you could get killed from ground. Old vacuum tube radios and TV sets were classic examples of "hot chassis" devices. Take a good long look at the three terminals on a standard home outlet. The two parallel terminals are now set up with one longer than the other and most appliances have one blade on the plug longer than the other so you cannot insert the plug wrong way around. In the good old days that was easy to do so if you had a hot chassis appliance (and many were) you could touch metal on the appliance and a steam radiator for example and the result was shocking (no pun intended). If you happend to be in a bathroom with one foot in the tub your next trip could be to the undertaker. A hot chassis device plugged into a properly wired outlet today will pop a breaker or GFI. But I digress. In electronics, voltages are measured with respect to the source which is normally a power supply or regulator circuit powered from some other source. Electronic devices (even car ECUs) have +12, -12, +5, -5 voltages as do the ECUs in boats these days. So -5v is not ground. In general boat wiring, in the 12 volts system in particular, ground is indeed implied to be the negative terminal of the battery or chassis ground if you will. Take a gander at the speaker outputs for most car audio systems as another example. You no longer "ground" speakers. The output pair is fed by a driver circuit. Ground the speaker and you will be looking for some repairs.
 

Tim Frank

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

The British positive earth side of this discussion brings up the inventor of the 3 way switch- John Lucas

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Could you be thinking of JOSEPH Lucas, AKA The Prince of Darkness? ;)
 

14ftgrumman

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

:)Knew his name started with a "J".
 

Texasmark

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

Ground and neutral connections in a residence were added because the early "electricians" did not understand that you could get killed from ground. Old vacuum tube radios and TV sets were classic examples of "hot chassis" devices. Take a good long look at the three terminals on a standard home outlet. The two parallel terminals are now set up with one longer than the other and most appliances have one blade on the plug longer than the other so you cannot insert the plug wrong way around. In the good old days that was easy to do so if you had a hot chassis appliance (and many were) you could touch metal on the appliance and a steam radiator for example and the result was shocking (no pun intended). If you happend to be in a bathroom with one foot in the tub your next trip could be to the undertaker. A hot chassis device plugged into a properly wired outlet today will pop a breaker or GFI. But I digress. In electronics, voltages are measured with respect to the source which is normally a power supply or regulator circuit powered from some other source. Electronic devices (even car ECUs) have +12, -12, +5, -5 voltages as do the ECUs in boats these days. So -5v is not ground. In general boat wiring, in the 12 volts system in particular, ground is indeed implied to be the negative terminal of the battery or chassis ground if you will. Take a gander at the speaker outputs for most car audio systems as another example. You no longer "ground" speakers. The output pair is fed by a driver circuit. Ground the speaker and you will be looking for some repairs.

Back when I was moonlighting in a TV shop to make ends meet and care for my family, I remember one Sears black/white I had on the portable work bench (an empty console cabinet on 4 rollers). I had the back cover off and it was one of the "thin line" that Sears sold a lot of, which made it unstable on a roll-a-round cart.

I accidentally bumped the cart and the TV started for the floor. Natural immediate reaction was to grab it to stabilize it and where I grabbed it, that HOT chassis you refer to was waiting for me......knocked the bejeebies out of me. Ha!

The other thing I didn't like abut them was their series strung filaments; one went out and you had to check every tube (like string christmas tree lights) to find the one without the filament, and then there was the stocking issue with all the different tube types and different filaments.....yucko!

Brings back memories.

Course the biggest memory that people of today have no concept of was "convergence adjustments" on the early color sets. And then you got it setup pretty good in the shop and when it was delivered to the customer, there was always something there to knock it off and you would have to do it again in the home. Geez what a nightmare.

Mark
 

Silvertip

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Re: What's it mean to ground something?

That is why you should have had the TV power cord connected to an isolation transformer. That prevented such accidents. Actually, what should have happened in those early days of electrification is the plug and receptacle folks should have polarized the cotton pickin' plugs and receptacles. Then the only issue would have been to train the "electricians" that black and white wires were not interchangable. Oh my could I tell you electrical stories. Like the genius that put the door bell transformer in my Mom In-Laws attic under about two feet of insulation.
 
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