Won't start

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

I have a 1996 Four Winns Horizon containing a Volvo Penta 4.3 6 cylinder gas engine with a volvo penta sx cobra outdrive. <br /><br />When launching yesterday it stalled right after starting and I could not get it to restart. I was guessing it was flooded. I pushed in the trailer and took it home. I tried tonight (one day later) to start on the muffs with no success.<br /><br />Following the manual I have observed the following.<br /><br />The engine turns over. I can see/hear fuel being squirted when pumping the throttle to WOT with the flame arrestor removed. Main coil from distributor cap has spark. I removed and inspected a plug no liquids came out, the plug looked normal had a slight smell of gas around the threads.<br /><br />Not sure what to try next, could it still be flooded a day later? Would I have observed more gas when pulling a plug if so?<br /><br />I have had cold start problems in the past, which may or may not be related to this problem. Here's the thread<br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=010177#000000 <br /><br />Thanks

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: Won't start

Need to check for fire at the plugs.<br />Check more than one.<br /><br />Could be a bad rotor shorted to ground in the distributor or a bad dist cap.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Won't start

I would pull all the plugs ground the the coil wire to prevent sparks and do a quick compression check. This way you know the valves and cam working and engine internals are good.<br /><br />If compression is good then it will be spark, timing or fuel. Spark and timing can useually be checked with a timing light. Check for proper timing on number one but also check that you are getting a spark on each wire.<br /><br />Also after the compression check with all the plugs out the cylinders will no longer be flooded.<br /><br />Fuel, Make sure the choke is not stuck closed. Make sure the fuel is fuel not water. A stuck float up or down will cause engine not to start. With someone trying to start shine a flashlight down the carb and see if fuel is dumping and flooding the engine. Then try pump the throttle while cranking and make sure squirting fuel. You can also manually squirt fuel in but do it safely. With flame arestter off your nose is the best fuel detector for the bilge.<br /><br />Last thing check battery voltage and make sure above 9 volts while cranking.<br /><br />By this point you should know what the no start cause is.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Won't start

Short & sweet, I like it! Do what Mr. Boatist says and you will nail the problem down..........Timing gears/chain?

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

Thanks Boatist for the detailed reply. Hopefully tonight I'll check for spark at each of the plugs and run a compression test if I can locate a tester.<br /><br />A couple of questions<br /><br />Why would poor compression be suspect the boat otherwise ran fine the previous outing?<br /><br />When checking for spark at the plug, I plan to remove the plug, insert it back into the ignition wire and ground the plug against the engine. Is making sure the nut is touching the engine a safe and sufficient ground. I don't know how much play each ignition wire has so I guess I will be fairly close to the valve cover.<br /><br />When running the compression test should the ignition coil wire be disconnected or grounded. Which end (coil or distributor) should be grounded and how does one ground or keep in constant contact with the engine block. I'm refering to the procedure recommended by Don S<br /><br />Thanks again

 

[jeff13601]

Re: Won't start

You can buy a plug tester for about 10 dollars. If not just scrape a small spot down to bare metal and touch the base of the plug to it. What part of ny are you from? Also remember to leave the throttle full.

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

Thanks Jeff the plug tester sounds like the way to go.<br /><br />"What part of ny are you from?"<br /><br />Westchester county 25 miles north of nyc

 

[jeff13601]

Re: Won't start

Im 25 miles fron the Canadian border

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

I followed some of the suggestions with results below. I was not able to perform the compression test. The tester was 65$ at the place I went to I saw some cheaper ones on line for like 25$ so it may be a few days. In the mean time I would like to keep ruling other possibilities out.<br /><br />"If compression is good then it will be spark, timing or fuel. Spark and timing can useually be checked with a timing light. Check for proper timing on number one but also check that you are getting a spark on each wire."<br /><br />Have a spark on each wire using a spark plug tester. However the intensity of the light varies which seems to coincide with the battery power. Meaning when turning nice and strong the the light is bright when it slows down momementarily the light is not as bright. This testing is straining the battery which I keep charging. Does this eliminate the cap and rotor?<br /><br />"Fuel, Make sure the choke is not stuck closed. Make sure the fuel is fuel not water. A stuck float up or down will cause engine not to start. With someone trying to start shine a flashlight down the carb and see if fuel is dumping and flooding the engine. Then try pump the throttle while cranking and make sure squirting fuel. You can also manually squirt fuel in but do it safely. With flame arestter off your nose is the best fuel detector for the bilge."<br /><br />The choke is not stuck closed. When shining a flashlight down the carb and don't see any fuel while turning over. Pumping the throttle to WOT and back squirts what smells like fuel. The fuel water separator filter is brand new. Not sure about a stuck float the manual shows a disassembly procedure for the fuel bowl and float setting with the carb removed. If it appears to be carb related I would probably rebuilt it. Its a Holley 2BBL marked 3853976 8C312-1 0846.<br /><br />Thanks for all the help so far

 

[jeff13601]

Re: Won't start

Dump about 3 tablespoons of gas into the carb and see if it starts and then stalls

 

[Mahoney]

Re: Won't start

Sounds like the fuel inlet needle connected to the float could be dislodged from the needle seat, basically letting fuel gush into the bowl when cranking the engine. If the fuel evaporated and the bowl was empty when you had is actually start that time on the water, it could be the fuel pump filled up the bowl adaquately to let the engine start, then immediatley the float couldnt seat the fuel inlet needle to block off fuel flow to the bowl basically flooding out the engine. ONce the bowl is full, it will take forever to evaporate out, leading to never bening able to start it, as well as being able to see fuel squirting out form the accelorator pump.<br /><br />This evening try pumping the throttle untill you run the fuel in the carb dry. Let it sit over night, charge the battery, then in the morning or when you get around to it, try and fire it up. Did it fire up at all? If so I am betting thats the issue. You will eventually have to pull off the airhorn to fix it if that is it, but that would be a way to tell before going through that.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Won't start

The key is not to just start replacing parts as you will spend a lot of money and may add another problem.<br /><br />Compression test tell you alot. It tell you the if you timing chain, belt or gear is good or broken. It tell you if you blew a head gasket. It tell you if you had water in one cylinder and blew a hole in the piston. It tell you if you are building enough peressure for a simple spark to ingite the fuel air mixture. It takes 10 minutes and eliminates one major part of your engine.<br /><br />Be carefull testing spark plug wires. If you want to do this I would suggest taking spare spark plug but leave all the plugs in. This prevents gas vapor from coming out where you are testing your spark plug and causeing a fire. Gap you test plug to at least .050. You can ground to the block but better to use a simple clamp like a battery charger clamp and hook one end to the block and the clamp to the spark plug base. A jumper cable will work also. One end to the block the other end to the plug base.<br /><br />Engine really very simple. <br />To run you need compression.<br />You need a proper fuel air mix.<br />You need a properly timed spark.<br /><br />When you find which one is wrong it will be easy to fix.

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

I definately plan to perform a compression test, I'm expecting the tester in the next day or so. I have no plans to start replacing parts and potentially compounding the problem. I plan to continue performing diagnostic testing to isolate and then correct the problem. The compression test will result in either the likely cause of the problem or will indicate normal compression leading me to on the other 2 components being fuel air mix and spark.<br /><br />Some of the advice so far seems to indicate either not enough fuel or too much fuel. Other than the suggestions provided (pour gas in carb then start or drain the bowl and start a day later) does anyone have any other suggestions to access the fuel flow. <br /><br />Boatist - Presuming the compression checked out what would be the your next step (I have checked for spark at each plug using an inline spark tester). Would performing either of the suggested fuel tests while I'm waiting for the compression tester hurt anything?

 

[Don S]

Re: Won't start

You might check the fuel pump relay. It probably started originally from the gas already in the carb.

 

[Mahoney]

Re: Won't start

Still think it sounds like a fuel inlet needle not seating

 

[SeaRyan]

Re: Won't start

I had this issue and it turned out the float was stuck. I hit the carberator with a crescent wrench not to hard and the float came unstuck and haven't had a problem since.

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

"Dump about 3 tablespoons of gas into the carb and see if it starts and then stalls"<br /><br />I tried Jeff's suggestion and it started right up! It ran for 20 or 30 seconds then died. So its appears its not getting fuel which leads to either the fuel pump, the fuel pump relay or the 6amp circuit breaker. <br /><br />I have a multimeter any suggestions on how to proceed. <br /><br />If I pull the connector off the fuel pump it has a black and a yellow wire should I see voltage when cranking? <br /><br />How does the breaker work it is just a red knob, when pushed does not click or anything. Should I check for voltage across the two breaker terminals when cranking?

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

Any other thoughts on this I feel I'm pretty close to solving this and don't want to just through parts at it. It is very likely it is either the fuel pump or the fuel pump relay. I am looking for a way to tell me which if any it is.

 

[Don S]

Re: Won't start

First of all, make sure you have the right relay there. There may be 2. One for the starter and one for the fuel pump.<br />On the fuel pump relay holder, after removing the relay, With your volt meter check that you have power at terminal 30 (positive lead of VOM) and terminal 86 (Negative lead of VOM) at all times. <br />With the key in the start position you should have power to the 85 terminal.<br />If you have both, replace the relay.<br />To check the pump, put a jumper across the 87 and 30 terminals. Pump should run. If it doesn't, you have a bad pump.<br /><br />

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Won't start

Thanks Don for the very detailed procedure, I'm going to do this right now. Will have results in 10 minutes.<br /><br />Not sure what you mean by both since you listed 3 thins to check two with the key off and one with the key in the start position.<br /><br />"On the fuel pump relay holder, after removing the relay, With your volt meter check that you have power at terminal 30 (positive lead of VOM) and terminal 86 (Negative lead of VOM) at all times." <br />With the key in the start position you should have power to the 85 terminal.<br />If you have both, replace the relay.