V6 150.......... Problem peeing

[gss036]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Ronnieboy, do you have a water pressure guage? I would think you would have about 2-3 psi at idle and 10-12 psi above 4200 rpm.
The poppet opens at about 6-8 psi, (2800-3000 rpm) that is why it is preloaded against the block when installing.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks for the info Gary. I found a diagram like the one you mention that shows the water flow. It's finally helping me to understand what you and ncfish are explaining to me. I guess I should have an issue seeing how the t-stat hoses and the poppet relief are dead ending into each other when they should both be able to relieve themselves of the water that they want to discharge. My diagram shows that each of those should go to a restricted discharge.

I'll start lubing the plug on the top of the block with some penetrating fluid. Is it correct to assume I can pop it free with a breaker bar with a 3/8" drive adapter on it? Would heat or some light taps with a hammer while turning it help? In the mean time, I'm considering T'ing the two lines together, starting her up, and restricting the flow a bit to see how it reacts.

Ronnieboy, your post also makes me feel better. I've worried a bit that the water takes too long to show itself after startup. Glad to hear it is normal.

When installing the poppet assy., I could feel the back edge of the poppet press firmly against the grommet/carrier with some pressure from the spring as I pressed the whole assembly against the block. While pressurizing the system earlier I was able to see water flow from the 90 degree fitting attached to the cover when I reached a decent pressure with the hose.

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Dennis; just checking back to see if you,re made progress. If the pump is installed and the poppet hose is removed from the t'stat loop, I feel that you will see results. It seems that the impeller, water tube question has been verified and you are ready to button things up.

As far as the hose configuration, It seems that someone tried to make the relief valve active by whatever means possible? However, the way it was, the poppet was actually working as the tale-tale and with that, you would see little or no water from the location it should be exiting. And yes, I believe the powerhead is an upgrade, but connected properly, it should work fine.

As far as the water hose making everything work correctly, that is why I asked the questions about the pump and water tube. You've verified everything ok, so I would move forward with the hoses, put it in the water and see what happens. It's possible that you had a restriction that was cleared when the hose was connected directly to the water tube? You won't need the poppet connected if you are only testing for water circulation at idle or slow speeds.

 

[fishingdan]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Just to screw with everyone's minds....I found this in my Seloc manual last night. It the generic manual that covers 1965-1989 95 to 300 hp 2-stroke inline 6 and v6 engines.

Page 8-71 (V6 Powerhead assembling):

"Connect the water distribution hoses from the starboard side thermostat cover to the discharge fitting on the pressure relief valve cover. The accompanying illustration, on the following page, indicates the cooling water flow."

The referred to diagram is a functional dipiction and not installation specific. It seems to show the bottom of each cylinder head or cylinder head cover somehow connecting to the the pressure relief valve (aka Poppet).

I have been following this thread along since it is very similar to the thread I started. A lot of great info in both threads. I can't help but think that Merc changed a lot of the cooling configuration frequently. Look at how many variations we have seen between these two threads.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Well I just got done trying a few things. I disconnected the hose connecting the poppet and t-stats like you said and started her up. At partial throttle (where I need to have it to let her warm up), there was flow from the t-stat hose, the poppet assy., and a light stream from the tell-tale. When it warmed up and I was able to put the throttle at just idle, the tell-tale slowly disappeared, the poppet assy. stopped flowing, and the t-stat hose still flowed. I placed my thumb partially over the hose from the t-stats to give it some back pressure. Still no sign from the tell-tale. It would show as soon as I gave it partial throttle, but again very weak. This time I didn't have the overflowing at all from the exhaust relief ports just below the cowl.

Still pretty confused about what's happening. Maybe there is still an issue with the water pump. I did seem to have proper flow from the exhaust though. Where is that water comming from? If my tell-tale was tied into my t-stat line I would have perfect flow each time at all rpm's. If I tie the poppet and the t-stats to the plug on the top of the block, will that water also flow from the prop exhaust?

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Fishingdan, thanks for the info. I've been following your thread also and have been trying to gain some knowledge from both.

My Clymer manual says it covers 1972-1989 45-225HP. Here is the diagram I have in mine:

Does your's look similar? It is funny that they make a manual covering all the years but things are so different.

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[fishingdan]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Yes, it is the exact same diagram minus the t-stat and relief valve cut aways.

"t-stat line I would have perfect flow each time at all rpm's" You have a winner. I think that is how it is supposed to be setup. My tell tale is connected to the t-stat discharge. The t-stat discharge comes down to a T. The T is then connected to the tell tale and to the other end of the T is connected to that connection at the bottom of the engine. See my picture below. I am 99% sure that this is right per the mercury parts diagrams.

You diagram showing the relief valve cut away has me thinking. When I was looking at mine today, I remember looking at it and thinking there was no way water could enter this assembly and force the poppet open (maybe I misunderstood earlier posts). I think the water inside the block pushes the poppet open and then the water enters the area under relief valve cover and should exit out the fitting. Where it should go from there, I don't know. I just don't see how water could enter the fitting on the end of the relief valve cover and push the poppet.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Ok, now I'm feeling a little better. I'm glad the two manuals agree on that.

That picture does wonders for me. I actually read your thread from top to bottom and noticed that I must have passed right over that pic!

On te topic of hose routing, I know your's goes from the port t-stat to the starboard t-stat to the picture you show. I know the justification is that the port side has greater flow (which I observred). But wouldn't that mean that it should be the other way around so the stronger port side is forced to flow through more hose. Maybe just being picky seeing how I have so many other hose issues...

I understand what you're saying about the poppet too. Running it today with the hoses off to that area helped me understand it much better. I could watch the flow begin as I increased throttle above idle. At idle, nothing from there at all.

My only question left is the one you mentioned- where does it go from there? I understand that it goes to the top of the block, but the plug I have in there looks to be painted in place as though it was never removed before. I also understand that the plug is the proper location for the pressure gauge? Wouldn't the poppet opening and closing keep changing the pressure at various idle throttle speeds? Maybe that's the idea? I have no clue, except for the fact that I need to get that plug out.

Dennis

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Look at the comments on fishindans thread. This should explain the poppet operation. As far as the t'stat hose question; you do have a little more (sooner) flow out the port side. You would like to have this seen through the tale-tale at start up. As pressure builds, you will see the collective of both port and starboard t'stats combined coming from the tale-tale.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Ok, thanks to ncfish, Gary, and fishingdan, I have a steady stream now. I'll post some pictures of how I ran the lines later, but it is exactly as all of you have said. I ended up correcting my routing between the t-stats, ran a hose from the port t-stat down to a T that intersects the slightly smaller diameter hose between the lower block hole and the tell-tale, and ran a seperate hose from the poppet relief fiting to a 1/2" brass fitting in the top of the block. I now have a decent stream at idle as well as at various rpm's. The exhaust now seems to sound a little quieter and more garbled (guessing that's a good thing meaning it's getting more water). At rpm's above idle, I also seemed to have somewhat of a waterfall out of the exhaust relief ports below the cowl (starboard more than port). Not sure if that's normal.

Here is the funny part. I disconnected the hose from the t-stat down to the tell-tale while running. The tell-tale was still flowing! That being said, is my cooling water that is comming out of my t-stats actually going anywhere? The flow diagram I posted above shows that the t-stat line should also have access to the restricted discharge (guessing that's the line I now have in the top of the block). Not sure if I'm good to go or need to also T the t-stats into the new line I have going to the top.

I really feel as though I'm almost there! BTW- any recommendations on a pressure gauge? Is there one that I buy specifically from Mercury or just an aftermarket one that reads to 12psi or so? I also need a temp gauge but I think I just buy the Mercury one and it will tie into my control box wiring (sender already in the motor)?

Thanks again!
Dennis

 

[fishingdan]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Well, that is good news Capt. It has been a long journey.

Can you post a picture of the top of your block? I would love to see the fitting that you used. Also, how hard was it to get the plug out of the top of the block?

I believe that there is no built in water pressure sender in the engines. Most people install the engine side of the pressure game in that same plug at the top of the block that you are now using for the relief valve line.

One question for ncfish if he is reading this. With the relief valve discharge line connected to the top of the block, the water from the relief valve must be coming from the poppet, through the discharge line and into the top of the block. Is that correct?

 

[ronnieboy]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

dennis, you need a larger waterpressure gauge than 12 #, my mag II puts out 24 pounds of pressure at wot,(60 mph) @ 5800 rpm, 2 to 3 at idle and the poppet kicks in at bout 7 to 8 pounds, gary hope this answers your questions too. later ron

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Great to hear your results. If the water coming from the tale-tale is hot/warm, then you're getting circulation through the power head and that's good. As far as water from the tale-tale with the t'stat hose disconnect, it's possible that you may be getting some amount of backfeed from the power head outlet (interconnected with the tale-tale hose}. Not sure...I've never tried the disconnect. As far as the pressure gauge, you can add a 2-way connector at the relief valve connection at the top or simplier, tee in to the hose and add one. Just as long as you're reading ahead of the relief valve connection. The gauge will be reading low pressure (less than 15#), so any low registering water gauge up to this rating will work.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Fishingdan, here are some photos. I'll do something a little more professional looking once I'm sure the motor is running ok. That fitting I put in the block was just a simple one I picked up from Home Depot (Brass I.D. Barb to MIP Adapter 3/8 x 1/2). When I do the pressure gauge, I'll probably swap that out with the same type fitting I used by the tell-tale (got that from the local Pep-Boys store), or do as ncfish said with a T fitting. The hoses still need trimmed down a bit, clamped and routed correctly, but the photos should give an idea.

The plug came out rather easy. I did a quick spray of WD-40 and used a large breaker bar with a 3/8" reducer to a short extension. I just had to sift through some extensions to find one that looked new and wasn't rounded so it would not slip in the plug. I guess a ratchet with a 2' pipe over it would do the same as the breaker bar I used.

ncfish- [colour=blue]"As far as the pressure gauge, you can add a 2-way connector at the relief valve connection at the top or simplier, tee in to the hose and add one. Just as long as you're reading ahead of the relief valve connection. "[/colour]

Not sure I follow you. Is it even possible to hook it up ahead of the relief valve. Isn't flow comming from the relief valve to the top of the block, making that whole hose downstream of the relief valve (poppet). I think I'm getting into fishingdan's question- which way is the flow going? From the block out through the poppet, or from the 90 degree fitting into the poppet and block? I thought it was the first way just by looking at the diaphragm.

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[fishingdan]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks for the pics Capt. I will be doing it the same way.

My plug came out very easily today.

 

[country boy]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

hello! capt. c. sounds like your getting your problem solved and a whole bunch of great feedback,and i am going to take a closer look at mine(routing)!i have a 94 175 mariner and had partially the same issue some time back when i first got it,went through whole thing too!and my conclusion on mine was on the( muffs) the volume of water pushing to the big block was not enough to give a good tale tale,till the stats opend all the way,and it ran long enough to get to temp.but when the L/U was in the water it was better beacause the hose did not have enough p.s.i. to give the volume it needed. i like the weed eater string thing it is something i use after mine sits a while and carry a peice with me on the water .dgood luck C.B.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks Country Boy. I was wondering about te muffs part also. Maybe if I had the dual feed ones I'd be in better shape. I hope to get it in the water maybe as soon as this weekend to see how everything reacts. Good point about the weed eater string with you on the water. Thanks!

 

[KCLOST]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

"At rpm's above idle, I also seemed to have somewhat of a waterfall out of the exhaust relief ports below the cowl (starboard more than port). Not sure if that's normal."

This is not normal unless the pressure from your water hose exceeds the spring force on the poppet assembly.
The poppet should not fully open until you reach 2500-3000rpms... Approx. 11-15psi to open it...
And don't run the engine on the muffs above 2000rpms, not good on the internals
...
The water exiting the upper exhaust ports indicates that the poppet valve is open and the water is dumping into the exhaust. Again it should not open under 2500-3000rpms... But if your garden hose pressure is high enough I guess it could be the cause...
To re-test just supply enough water that at 1500-2000 rpms almost all of the water is being sucked up into the lower unit. You don't want water squirting out around the muffs everywhere... Just give it a little more than it can take at whatever rpm you are running...

I'm assuming that you have the lower unit back on and are using earmuffs????

 

[KCLOST]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Oh and the flow goes from the top of the block fitting to the poppet fitting. The hose is there just to relieve air pockets that may form...

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks KCLOST, I must still have some issues then. If I disconnect my poppet assy. line and let it idle, nothing comes out of the exhaust relief. If I bring it off idle it starts to squirt out from that line (which previously fed into my t-stat line, but now feeds in to the top of the block). I'm guessing that means my poppet is only staying seated at idle and is opening way too early, but I'll try it again at lower hose pressure.
I guess it also means that the area behind the poppet is pressurized with water that is exiting my poppet instead of entering it?

So if the line connecting the two is for relieving steam, what does it do when the rpms cause tha poppet to open? Divert water out of the top of the block and send it as a "wall of water" to the exhaust through the poppet?

Sorry for all the novice questions. I searched all about poppet valves on the net and they just get into the design and theory behind the valve, not its function on an outboard.

Oh, the lower is back on and the muffs are on also. The highest revs the motor sees it just at startup when it finally catches, then I immediately drop her down as low as I can until it warms up.

Thanks,
Dennis