another beep and nada,zip problem

hottuna

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Yo Rodbolt.I just had almost the same problem as dgbarber.When I turn the key it beeps then nothing but I hear the fuel pump and a click at the starter.The wierd thing is I went to pull start and as I turned the flywheel the alarm went on and when I turned the key it started.It would turn on after shutting down a few times but it wouldn't start again.When turning the flywheel it beeps but now it won't start unless I pullstart with cord.Twin 2001 250 ox66's with starboard engine problem
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

do you have a multi meter ?
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

rodbolt said:
do you have a multi meter ?

Thanks for the reply Rodbolt. Yes I have a meter and think I know how to use it. A friend showed me the basics of how it works.
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

ok, place the meter leads on the battery posts not cable ends and check for at least 12.5 volts if not then check/charge the battery.
if 12.5 is present place one lead on the negative post and the other on the block making sure you have a good contact point, I use gator clips. crank the engine, if any more than .o5 volts is present you need to check/clean the ground connections.
now shift the meter leads, place one on the positive battery terminal,not cable end and the other on the battry side of the starter solinoid and crank engine anything over .04v is unacceptable,now shift the meter leads to one on each of the starter solinoid main terminals crank enginge,voltage should read less than .02v
what we are looking for is excessive resistance in the cables and cable ends.
no resistance means no voltage drop.
if you have a battery switch and the positive terminal to solinoid test fails then test the switch.
all voltage is is a potential difference between the source positive and source negative.
every electron that leaves the battery to engage the starter or anything else must be able to return, if it is restricted at any point you will have a voltage drop.

for example. the block to negative terminal test.
in that test if the cable and connections are perfect there will be NO restriction for the poor electrons heading home and thus no potential(voltage) difference betweeen the two points.
always remember voltage can roughly be compared tp pressure and NEVER flows, current can be compared to water flow in a pipe and will always take the path of least resistance and all of it must flow.

I am gonna give Tom's garden hose theory of trons.
imagine you left the hose with the nozzle on the end,laying in the sun with the supply valve off.
as the sun heats the water the pressure increases in the hose, you may have 30PSI in the hose(12v) .now squeeze the nozzle trigger, ya get a spurt and then nothing(bad connection,no flow).
now look at what ya have, ya turn the key on,not many trons are required, now ya turn it to start,there are enough trons,initially, to close the contactor(solinoid) but as soon as the starter motor asks for a couple hundred amps its just not avalible and the spurt is gone and it all shuts down.
this stuff aint hard but it requires reading and understanding why each piece is there and its relationship to the other pieces.
break it into pieces, the starting circuit has a bunch of stuff,break it into starter motor control circuits and the stater motor feed circuits and it gets easier.

on the control side you have the brown wire that applies 12v to the solinoid windings at start position.current flow is from the battery,through the start contacts in the keyswitch,through the nuetral start switch,usually inside the control box, back to the engine to the solinoid,throught the solinoid windings and back to the battery through the block(ground).
the 12v power tap for the keyswitch is on the battery terminal side of the start solinoid then the 20 amp fuse then the wire harness from the engine to keyswitch,battery feeds on yamahas are red and hot any time the battery is connected and any batt switches are on.
ign circuits for key on 12v is yellow and hot when the key is in the on position,starter control circuits are brown,some aftermarket boxs will have yellow/red wires for the nuetral start switch.
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

ok.makes total sense.will work on it mon & tues.
can you suggest the best engine manual to have?
thanks again.
 

dgbarber

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

I just printed this thread.. Thanks both!! RODBOLT and HOTTUNA
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

Rodbolt.the first few tests were ok but the positive battery to the negative solinoid failed.it read about 15v.i unsrewed the battery switch from the wall and can see 3 posts from the back of it.how do you test the switch?it's a guest with #1 on left, #2 on right, both on top and off on bottom. to get a better look at it i would have to remove both batteries,it's real tight in there.
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

Rodbolt. forgot to say that when i cranked the engine to start the tests she fired right up every time.whats up with that?
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

I should have told ya to pull the stop lanyard, guess I missed a step.
dont remember anything about positive terminal to negative solinoid.
what the voltage drop tests do is determine where in the wire there is a break or bad connection, if you have no voltage it means there is no breaks.

if you tested from the positive battery cable to the block you will read battery voltage and the test is worthless for finding a bad connection or wire.
I have the picture scanned in my puter but dont know if it will email.
feed circuits include the battery to block and the battery to solinoid, solinoid to starter and battery switches. control circuits are power to the keyswitch,nuetral safty switch keyswitch and solinoid.
solinoid failure is actually rare, cable and cable connections are fairly common.
 

dgbarber

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

can we expect a failure somewhere in the battery switch itself?
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

the engine was running for all the tests. a friend explained to me why testing with the engine running won't work. i told him you can't turn the key without it starting. the stop lanyard, duh, boy do i feel dumb. that's why i cook for a livin. he will help me tomorro am. the + battery to - solinoid was my thought that + to - not + to +. slowly i'm gettin it. thanks
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

negative post,not cable, to a clean spot on the block. crank engine with stop lanyard removed. should read less than .5 volts. this we will call V negative.

next shift the leads to the positive post,not cable, to the battery terminal on the starter solinoid and crank the engine with the stop lanyard removed. this should be .4v or less and we will call it V1, next test from the battery side of the solinoid main terminal to the stater side terminal of the solinoid, crank engine with stop lanyard removed. this should be .1V or less. next from the positive post not cable, on the battery to the starter terminal, this we will call V4 and should be less than .7 volts.
I am gonna try one more time.
voltage is a measure of electrical pressure, also known a a difference of electrical potential.
if we place one volt meter lead at a point on a wire with current flowing and the other meter lead 10 feet down the cable it will read 0 volts on a perfect cable as there is NO difference in electrical potential.
now we are goint to add terminal ends and a switch. the same ten feet.
thats why I keep hammering to use the actual battery post not the cable end.
now we flow current through our cable. any place there is a reistance to electron flow will show up as a difference of electrical potential and is detectable with a volt meter.
so in your case on your positive cable between the + battery post and the starter solinoid you have at least 4 terminals and a set of switch contacts that are all failure points.
on the negative cable you have at least 2 failure points.
not to mention if the cable insulation has a pin hole and has allowed water intrusion to destroy the cable.
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

i always use the posts not cables. i totally understand how the current [flow] and voltage [pressure] thing works and i now understand how to find a difference of electrical potential. just had to put it all together. rodbolt if you ain't a teacher, you should be one!
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

I am actually working on that,
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

rodbolt, i think we found the problem.all the tests were ok. my friend said it would be easier to find the problem if the engine wouldn't start but it was working fine so we thought we would start with the negative cable since you said there are less failure points than the positive cable. what we found was a loose connection on the starter negative post. i only checked the connections on the batteries and not on the engine. hopefully that was the problem and i will check ALL connections periodically.
FYI i've had boats for last 25 yrs on long island NY but never worked on the outboards. since getting these 250's in 4 / 06 with 150 hrs i'd like to work on them to my basic mechanical limits. can i buy a manual that will tell and show me what and how to keep the engines running strong? unfortunately i will only be able to run them for 5 - 6 weeks almost every day twice a year in the FL keys. many thanks for all your patience and help.
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

on the books, nope.
on the rest. common sense and morality cannot be placed into law.

one day I will get as techno as DonS and be able to post more. either that or soon I will visit DonS and give him my notes.
until then ya have to deal with my ramblings.
sorry :).
the visit DonS is getting close.
 

hottuna

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

ok rodbolt. i'll do my best cause i ain't scared no more and hopefully my tech in the keys ain't no shade tree.but if he is cause common sense ain't so common i'll be hailing you again.many thanks and if you should find yourself in VT or the FL keys give me a shout and drinks and dinner are on me 8)
 

dgbarber

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

My friends.. today MY same issue was reduced to a starter motor "dead spot" simply rotate the motor 1/4 turn and... starts right up! Still looking into the problem, and prepared to replace the starter, but.... here's a start
 

rodbolt

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Re: another beep and nada,zip problem

even with a dead spot on the commutater you will still get a solid click from the starter solinoid.
 
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