How the right killed Christmas

[Plainsman]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

EK,

Has PC taken it away from you? What do you really care if a store says Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas. I don't need the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or a Bible in a school to believe. I know what Christmas means and no matter what another person or group attempts to push, it does not change my belief or how I celebrate them.

PC cannot take the meaning away from anyone, unless they were skeptical to begin with.

Good try. When people are forced to NOT celebrate a national holiday, express their beliefs it is a problem. Heck, I thought a lefty would be for freedoms. What is wrong with Johnny singing silent night in a school Christmas program? But wait, there isn't a school Christmas program anymore, is there? Why?

Look at the Supreme Court House, Moses is on it. Does that have to go as well? What about In GOD we trust on our currency, should that go because a minority is offended by it?

I don't care if someone says Happy Holidays, Happy Kawinsa or nothing at all. Just don't stop the MAJORITY from expressing themselves. If you don't want your kid to be a part of something, fine, pull them from it. But don't stop a school from doing something that the MAJORITY want.

EDIT: And I challenge anyone to show me in the Constitution where it states anything about the seperation of church and state.

This is where it comes from, NOT the Constitution:
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Anyone care to take a shot at this?

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

No, I don't think I'm delusional. I am more of a realist

When is the last time you heard someone from the right complain about the deaths taking place in Iraq?

I know many people that complain daily. The difference, CJY, is that we blame the leftys and their PC BS for all the deaths and the way the war has gone. Ell these young men and women are fighting with both hands tied behind their back because of delusional people like yourself.

 

[jtexas]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

re: "wall of separation".

"Anyone care to take a shot at this? "

Dangit, brought my knife to a gunfight - hate it when that happens. How bout I take a stab at it instead?

The Jefferson letter is the origin of the catch-phrase "separation of church and state".

But the concept is more important than the words used to describe it. It was widely and hotly debated before Jefferson's letter. There's lots of written material on both sides of the issue, from many of the founding fathers including Madison, Washington, Franklin and more.

As you know, the constitution is a framework, made flexible by the creation of the supreme court, and by the inclusion of provisions that allow amendments. If you want to find the answers to life's persistent questions spelled out in detail, the constitution is not the place to look.

Furthermore, our legal system evolved from the British, from the time of the Magna Charta or even before. It's based on precedent, wherein courts rule on disagreements regarding the application of any particular law, which ruling then becomes law of the land unless and until overturned by legislature. When interpretating an act of a legislature, courts attempt to determine "legislative intent", or "what result did the lawmakers intend to achieve." Determination of legislative intent involves study of the writings of the legislators. In the 18th century, letter writing was a very common way for political leaders to make their opinions, views and "intent" known. They didn't have press conferences back then.

What I'm saying is, right, wrong or indifferent, that's how the Constitution works. It's not a jetski that can be turned on a dime...it's a 800-ton tall-masted sailing ship. Once it gets started off in one direction, takes a lot of effort to get it back on course. If the winds have blown us too far to port, it'll take some effort to swing the bow back round to starboard.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Am I witnessing a slow transformation?

 

[Plainsman]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

re: "wall of separation".

"Anyone care to take a shot at this? "

Dangit, brought my knife to a gunfight - hate it when that happens. How bout I take a stab at it instead?

The Jefferson letter is the origin of the catch-phrase "separation of church and state".

But the concept is more important than the words used to describe it. It was widely and hotly debated before Jefferson's letter. There's lots of written material on both sides of the issue, from many of the founding fathers including Madison, Washington, Franklin and more.

As you know, the constitution is a framework, made flexible by the creation of the supreme court, and by the inclusion of provisions that allow amendments. If you want to find the answers to life's persistent questions spelled out in detail, the constitution is not the place to look.

Furthermore, our legal system evolved from the British, from the time of the Magna Charta or even before. It's based on precedent, wherein courts rule on disagreements regarding the application of any particular law, which ruling then becomes law of the land unless and until overturned by legislature. When interpretating an act of a legislature, courts attempt to determine "legislative intent", or "what result did the lawmakers intend to achieve." Determination of legislative intent involves study of the writings of the legislators. In the 18th century, letter writing was a very common way for political leaders to make their opinions, views and "intent" known. They didn't have press conferences back then.

What I'm saying is, right, wrong or indifferent, that's how the Constitution works. It's not a jetski that can be turned on a dime...it's a 800-ton tall-masted sailing ship. Once it gets started off in one direction, takes a lot of effort to get it back on course. If the winds have blown us too far to port, it'll take some effort to swing the bow back round to starboard.

So does that mean that there is no legal foundation for the seperation of church and state?

 

[POINTER94]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Its a bastardization of a ruling. Jeffersons intent was that this was a states rights issue. The supreme court in 1947 took his writings out of context and the rest is just rewriting history. I am sure my opinion means nothing to most folks but how about United States Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist:

The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.

But if you don't like Rehnquist how about the liberal icon, Justice William O. Douglas who wrote for the Court:

The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State . . . We find no constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects . . . We cannot read into the Bill of Rights such a philosophy of hostility toward religion.” (Zorach v. Clauson, 1952)

I am sure that the above rulings make all at the ACLU angry enough to go spit nails.


http://www.brookesnews.com/052507churchstate.html

http://www.lc.org/Resources/myth_of_separation_church_state.html

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Most of the founders promoted religion in their private lives yet promoted a secular government.

As a conservative I wish to take the Constitution at its word.
In plain (and exact) language "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
1954 was hardly the time of "original intent" when Congress adopted "under God" as part of the Pledge of Allegience.
"In God we trust" to be printed on money was also legislated by Congress about the same time.

Clearly the Government violated the First Amendment.

 

[xtraham]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

worst thread ever.

 

[12Footer]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

 

[12Footer]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Twas

the day

after christmas,

lol.So your cheerios smell like ammonia? That thread is keeping you up isn't it?
LoL!:devil:

 

[POINTER94]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

I agree with you skinny, even with regards to the pledge. The things I object to is this progressive, secular mentality that saying a prayer before a football game or nativity scenes on the square in a public park and the like are somehow unconstitutional which is an unbelievable stretch to arrive at. Their fear of religion is really quite humorous to me. If muslims want to celebrate their holidays it is fine with me. But to deny a CHRISTMAS holiday and try to convince the youth of America that Judeo-Christian values wasn't what established this country is disgusting and a flat lie. I am completely confused by this thread, How the right killed christmas. I guess the edit killed off the connection, but all the remaining posts fail to support any conclusion that the right has killed Christmas.

The left has clearly done everything within their power to kill off Christmas be it constitutional or not. Those who cannot at least consider the possiblity that there is something greater than themselves scare the sheet out of me. And their fear and need to eliminate any history of this is testimony to that belief.

 

[jtexas]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

good analysis, pointer.

My answer to EricKem's question "So does that mean that there is no legal foundation for the seperation of church and state?" would be, no I don't thing it means that. I think the constitution separates government from religion. Maybe it should be a fence of separation instead of a wall. A nice hurricane fence, that doesn't block the view, or prevent conversation.

say pointer, I think it's a fear of lawsuits not a fear of religion. I think the ACLU is a bully, always prowling around lookin for something to fight about. It's their raison d'être.

also, note that the title of the thread is obsolete, the offensive material having been voluntarily withdrawn by the author.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

I agree with you skinny, even with regards to the pledge. The things I object to is this progressive, secular mentality that saying a prayer before a football game or nativity scenes on the square in a public park and the like are somehow unconstitutional which is an unbelievable stretch to arrive at. Their fear of religion is really quite humorous to me. If muslims want to celebrate their holidays it is fine with me. But to deny a CHRISTMAS holiday and try to convince the youth of America that Judeo-Christian values wasn't what established this country is disgusting and a flat lie...............The left has clearly done everything within their power to kill off Christmas be it constitutional or not. Those who cannot at least consider the possiblity that there is something greater than themselves scare the sheet out of me. And their fear and need to eliminate any history of this is testimony to that belief.

Yes Pointer and you and I and even jtexas as Conservatives are examples of another point. We are capable of free thought and conclusions that display compromise. We admit the violation against the First Amendment conserning the pledge, yet recognise your example of prayer before football games and nativity scenes being absent a congressional establishment of religion.

Not to change the topic but instead as an example to make another point, the liberals assault on religion is identical to their views on abortion.
It isn't good enough that abortion is legal to those that want it. They want it unconditional, federally funded, late term, and provided to children without parental notification.
Honest, law abiding citizens and guns? They'll sue the manufactures.

And it even goes further by my above post where I provided a liberal a political example of his own hypocricy and denial.
"You CJY are no more clever than a "ditto head" since you've failed to admit that there hasn't been a statesman to be found in your own flock of politicians.
And let it be clear, your beloved Democrats voted for the war in Iraq. And they did so with the same intelligence as the then President of 8 months. Your party said nothing different in 1998 about Iraq and Saddam that Bush said in 2002."

Pointer, there is plenty of examples of radical fringe on both sides here. However in a good debate I notice that a Republican is able to shift to compromise easier than a liberal.
Those liberals that are good at debate here would rather default to emotionally using their children, to using language that isn't to be taken seriously, and to completely ignore the points that would sway them to compromise.

 

[QC]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Excellent post Skinny. Can I join your approved list of conservatives capable of compromise? If I'm really nice for a while?

I had a really long post written out last night with a lot of similar Church and State stuff. However, I deleted it because it also had a long list of questions to CJY that would've just started a fight. Maybe I'm growing up . . .

 

[technostingray]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

. Maybe I'm growing up . . .

Careful there QC. The next step after growing up is getting old. With age there comes wisdom. Here is a negative example:

Who built the levee system to begin with or was it a natural occurrence?

Well it wasn't beavers or ants . . .

...Oh, oh, I forgot something. The area south of the Salton Sea is called the Imperial Valley, it is farmland that is basically reclaimed desert. There are quite a few diversion dams for irrigation that allowed the reclamation. It was probably one of these aqueducts or some such thing that broke.

No, no no. It was a developers conspiracy. They needed the space to build a ddt factory to kill all the mosquitoes in the fields they were going to develop in Imperial valley so they could build houses in Orance County... :yikes: Being skeptical isn't neccesarily a bad thing but making mountains out of mole hills is called progess.

With all this eye rolling you do, don't they get a little gritty? Or do you have a maid that comes in to mop twice a day.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

So does that mean that there is no legal foundation for the seperation of church and state?

Didn't bother to teach you that in the public school, did they EricKems. It's no wonder with all the public schools controlled by the NEA! The same people that bring cucumbers and condoms to your kids.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

...... Can I join your approved list of conservatives capable of compromise?......

Without a doubt QC and there are many others.

Funny thing though, there are some that allude to being and largely come off as being liberal that are capable of reasoned thought with compromise.
Snapperbait comes to mind and I suspect he is more conservative than he thinks he is.

 

[QC]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Well there is one who most often sounds ridiculously liberal who I believe is actually pretty conservative . . . our very own Mr. Kopec, AKA Haut Medoc :0 I just don't think he can a) bring himslef to admit it and, b) handle the conseravtive = mean, stoic, old and selfish thing. Which of course is a load of carp . . .

 

[Boomyal]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

...... Can I join your approved list of conservatives capable of compromise?......

Without a doubt QC and there are many others.

Funny thing though, there are some that allude to being and largely come off as being liberal that are capable of reasoned thought with compromise.
Snapperbait comes to mind and I suspect he is more conservative than he thinks he is.

This has long been a mystery to me. I have had and have many relatives and aquaintances who are as conservative as you can get. Conservative in all the areas, socially, fiscally, morally, religiously, and they still vote Democratic.

Beats the s*** out of me. It must be something in the Kool-Aid!

 

[QC]

Re: How the right killed Christmas

Personally Boomer I believe the answer to the mystery is in my second to last sentence, item "b" ^