More Germans fear US than Iran

jinx

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Pretty amazing bit of sarcasm for fellow Germans from Der Spiegel. Well worth a read, Jinx

Evil Americans, Poor Mullahs
By Claus Christian Malzahn

Forty-eight percent of Germans think the United States is more dangerous than Iran, a new survey shows, with only 31 percent believing the opposite. Germans' fundamental hypocrisy about the US suggests that it's high time for a new bout of re-education.


AP
A German man carries a banner with a picture of Bush as Hitler during a 2003 demonstration against the Iraq war in Leipzig. Bush-bashing is something of a national sport in Germany.
The Germans have believed in many things in the course of their recent history. They've believed in colonies in Africa and in the Kaiser. They even believed in the Kaiser when he told them that there would be no more political parties, only soldiers on the front.

Not too long afterwards, they believed that Jews should be placed into ghettos and concentration camps because they were the enemies of the people. Then they believed in the autobahn and that the Third Reich would ultimately be victorious. A few years later, they believed in the Deutsche mark. They believed that the Berlin Wall would be there forever and that their pensions were safe. They believed in recycling as well as in cheap jet travel. They even believed in a German victory at the soccer World Cup.

Now they believe that the United States is a greater threat to world peace than Iran. This was the by-no-means-surprising result of a Forsa opinion poll commissioned by Stern magazine. Young Germans in particular -- 57 percent of 18-to-29-year-olds, to be precise -- said they considered the United States more dangerous than the religious regime in Iran.

The German political establishment, which will no doubt loudly lament the result of the poll, is largely responsible for this wave of anti-Americanism. For years the country's foreign ministers fed the Germans the fairy tale of what they called a "critical dialogue" between Europe and Iran. It went something like this: If we are nice to the ayatollahs, cuddle up to them a bit and occasionally wag our fingers at them when they've been naughty, they'll stop condemning their women to death for "unchaste behavior" and they'll stop building the atom bomb.


Forum

Anti- Americanism in Germany: Justified Or Not?
Discuss the issue with other SPIEGEL ONLINE readers!

That plan failed at some point -- an outcome, incidentally, that Washington had long anticipated. Iran continues to work away unhindered on its nuclear program, and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad reacts to UN demands with an ostentatious show of ignorance. The UN gets upset and drafts a resolution.

Another item on the Iranian president's wish list is the annihilation of Israel. But that will take a bit longer. In the meantime, just to make sure it doesn't get out of practice, the regime had 15 British soldiers kidnapped a few days ago. But it's still all the Americans' fault -- that much is obvious.

Inherently evil

We've known just what they're like for a long time. The 19th-century German author Karl May taught us about the American Wild West, and Karl Marx warned us about unbridled capitalism. Besides, we've all been there at least once -- on vacation, of course. Be it in California or Florida (that's where you get the best deals on rental cars, you know), we can see right through the Americans.

For us Germans, the Americans are either too fat or too obsessed with exercise, too prudish or too pornographic, too religious or too nihilistic. In terms of history and foreign policy, the Americans have either been too isolationist or too imperialistic. They simply go ahead and invade foreign countries (something we Germans, of course, would never do) and then abandon them, the way they did in Vietnam and will soon do in Iraq.

Worst of all, the Americans won the war in 1945. (Well, with German help, of course -- from Einstein and his ilk.) There are some Germans who will never forgive the Americans for VE Day, when they defeated Hitler. After all, Nazism was just an accident, whereas Americans are inherently evil. Just look at President Bush, the man who, as some of SPIEGEL ONLINE's readers steadfastly believe, "is worse than Hitler." Now that gives us a chance to kill two birds with one stone. If Bush is the new Hitler, then we Germans have finally unloaded the Führer on to someone else. In fact, we won't even have to posthumously revoke his German citizenship, as politicians in Lower Saxony recently proposed. No one can hold a candle to our talent for symbolism!

Anti-Americanism is the wonder drug of German politics. If no one believes what you're saying, take a swing at the Yanks and you'll be shooting your way back up to the top of the opinion polls in no time. And on the practical side, you can be the head of the Social Democratic Party and endear yourself to the party's hardcore with a load of anti-American nonsense, and still get invited back to Washington -- just look at Gerhard Schröder. In fact, you could, like leading German politicians in the debate over the planned American missile shield in Europe, be accused of having "an almost unbelievable lack of knowledge" by a former NATO general, and even that wouldn't matter. It's all about what you believe, not what you know.

Anti-Americanism is hypocrisy at its finest. You can spend your evening catching the latest episode of "24" and then complain about Guantanamo the next morning. You can claim that the Americans have themselves to blame for terrorism, while at the same time calling for tougher restrictions on Muslim immigration to Germany. You can call the American president a mass murderer and book a flight to New York the next day. You can lament the average American's supposed lack of culture and savvy and meanwhile send off for the documents for the Green Card lottery.

Not a day passes in Germany when someone isn't making the wildest claims, hurling the vilest insults or spreading the most outlandish conspiracy theories about the United States. But there's no risk involved and it all serves mainly to boost the German feeling of self-righteousness.

Not so safe

Iran is a different story. The last time someone made a joke on German TV about an Iranian leader, the outcome was not pleasant. Exactly 20 years ago, Dutch entertainer Rudi Carell produced a short TV sketch portraying Ayatollah Khomeini dressed in women's underwear. Carell received death threats. The piece, which lasted all of a few seconds, led to flights being cancelled and German diplomats being expelled from Tehran. Carell apologized. Jokes about fat Americans are just safer.

Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, the American historian who in his 1996 book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" deprived the Germans of the belief that they didn't know what was going on back in the day, is currently studying the history of genocides in the 20th century. One of the things he has noticed is that the politicians or military leaders who planned genocides and had them carried out rarely concealed their intentions in advance. Whether the victims were Hereros, Armenians, kulaks, Jews or later Bosnians, the perpetrators generally believed that they were justified and had no reason to hide their murderous intentions.

Today, when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad talks about a world without Israel while dreaming of an atom bomb, it seems obvious that we -- as Germans of all people -- should be putting two and two together. Why shouldn't Ahmadinejad mean what he says? But we Germans only know what we believe.

The Americans are more dangerous than the ayatollahs? Perhaps the Americans should take the Germans at their word for a change. It's high time for a new round of re-education. The last one obviously didn't do the job.

Claus Christian Malzahn is SPIEGEL ONLINE's Berlin bureau chief
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

Some folks just can't be helped, they'll believe crap once its spoon-fed.:|
 

cmyers_uk

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

So they fear you surely thats a result. Hopefully it will stop them marching across europe for a third time d:)
 

tommays

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

Deutsche halten USA für bedrohlicher als den Iran


Tommays
 

rolmops

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran(literal translation of your german phrase)?
There is a big difference between these 2 statements.
 

QC

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

rolmops said:
So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran
Both are preposterous. The only thing that Continental Europe learned from World War 2 was to be tolerant of evil to avoid war, not to fight it. So effectively they learned nothing, zippo, nada . . .
 

Gabby

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

When I was in Berlin, I never had ONE German old enough to remember the Russian occupation give me grief. The younger ones, the Hip and cool ones that came of age and were born in the 60's and 70's did, but that's European Chic. Hate Americans, embrace their products.

Just like the Saudi's have now forgotten how loudly they cried when Saddam marched into Kuwait in 90, the Germans have forgotten the Marshall Plan and what was once parked on their eastern frontier just waiting for Die Mauer to fall and the imperialists to leave.

Besides, other than a token show of force in Iraq, for about 1 week, the Germans haven't been allowed out of Der Vaterland with more than a pop gun in 62 years.

The Frogs are still a we bit nervous you know...
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

[colour=blue]Hmmmmmm, I think they will wish for the 'good ol' days' in another 25 years or so, if they survive all the car burning, (n' refrain from free speech n' drawin' cartoons et al). Their birthrate has fallen, and they need the Muslims to do their work when they are taken those two month vacations they got real used to because they knew the US Military was protecting 'em, n' the US dollars the dependents spend was also supportin' 'em too. When they began to pray to Mecca five times per day or loose somthing dear they will long for the Americans. BTW, in case ya forgot: THEY REALLY HATED ol' Ronald Reagan's, (the "cowboy's") "peace keepers"! Remember all the protests n' bad words in the early 1980s about how bad America was [?], (the root of all the world's problems don't ya know[?])! The world has hated us since the end of WW2. That is not likely to change unless the next Democrat President surrenders to the Imam's then they would like us for five minutes or so. America = BAD. JR[/colour]
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

rolmops said:
So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran(literal translation of your german phrase)?
There is a big difference between these 2 statements.

[colour=blue]Yer right Rolmops, maybe America would not surrender as the rest of the world likely will, (at least as the 'enlightened' European elites plan ta do). VERY DANGEROUS TO RESIST DEFEAT to pacifists who are anxious to welcome and kiss their approaching masters. JR[/colour]
 

rolmops

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

OldMercsRule said:
rolmops said:
So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran(literal translation of your german phrase)?
There is a big difference between these 2 statements.

[colour=blue]Yer right Rolmops, maybe America would not surrender as the rest of the world likely will, (at least as the 'enlightened' European elites plan ta do). VERY DANGEROUS TO RESIST DEFEAT to pacifists who are anxious to welcome and kiss their approaching masters. JR[/colour]

Merc, I do not think that you can read the minds of all these "liberal "European elites
I do know that Europe went through 2 world wars mostly fought on European soil.In the first one about 20 million people died and in the second one it was roughly a hundred million overall.This has made most Europeans very wary of war,and understandably so.
The USA has fought all of its major wars far from its own shores and Americans mostly perceive war as something you go do elsewhere.
That being said ,I also know that the Germans have a bit of a history as tough fighters and I for one do not believe that they are the surrendering type of people.
 

QC

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

Follow-up to my previous post. Add rolmops to my list of those who learned nothing from both world wars. Even the loss of 120 million people hasn't taught the world that the real threat is human evil . . . Maybe Pol Pot Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, Saddam (add name of modern genocidal murderer of choice) simply hadn't taken the right classes in school, that's it
14.gif
No, wait, I forgot, the real threat is Global Warming. What was the death count again from Global Warming? It escapes me . . .
14.gif
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

More Germans fear US than Iran

HMMMMMMM......
Maybe it's because there are more Muslims in Germany than Germans........:devil:
 

Plainsman

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

Quote rolmps:
"That being said ,I also know that the Germans have a bit of a history as tough fighters and I for one do not believe that they are the surrendering type of people. "
End quote

I can think of 2 times they did in the last 100 years. Am I wrong? Heres' a hint WWI and WWII.
 

rolmops

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

QC said:
Follow-up to my previous post. Add rolmops to my list of those who learned nothing from both world wars. Even the loss of 120 million people hasn't taught the world that the real threat is human evil . . . Maybe Pol Pot Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, Saddam (add name of modern genocidal murderer of choice) simply hadn't taken the right classes in school, that's it
14.gif
No, wait, I forgot, the real threat is Global Warming. What was the death count again from Global Warming? It escapes me . . .
14.gif

I do think our judgment of me is unfair.
I have learned to never forget,to tell the story and to never allow a similar tragedy,which mostly annihilated my own family,
to ever happen again.
Now from here on out we may differ in our opinions about when to take action and what that action should be,but I do believe that our ideas are the same.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

rolmops said:
OldMercsRule said:
rolmops said:
So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran(literal translation of your german phrase)?
There is a big difference between these 2 statements.

[colour=blue]Yer right Rolmops, maybe America would not surrender as the rest of the world likely will, (at least as the 'enlightened' European elites plan ta do). VERY DANGEROUS TO RESIST DEFEAT to pacifists who are anxious to welcome and kiss their approaching masters. JR[/colour]

Merc, I do not think that you can read the minds of all these "liberal "European elites
I do know that Europe went through 2 world wars mostly fought on European soil.In the first one about 20 million people died and in the second one it was roughly a hundred million overall.This has made most Europeans very wary of war,and understandably so.
The USA has fought all of its major wars far from its own shores and Americans mostly perceive war as something you go do elsewhere.
That being said ,I also know that the Germans have a bit of a history as tough fighters and I for one do not believe that they are the surrendering type of people.

[colour=blue]Boy Rolmops All that fancy European learnin' n' all, and ya never heard of ol General Sherman? Hmmmmm, I guess ya never heard of ol' Abe Lincoln either. I'm not impressed that the University in Holland was so hot after all. Let me share some inconvienant facts with ya. The US civil war, which was really a WAR between states was the MOST bloody n' distructive war we ever had by a wide margin. Guess ya never heard that before eh? As to mind readin' I'm judging actions and words: Rolmops. JR [/colour]ps; The date of Das Kapital, Marx n Engles was 1867, (the most murderous philosophy in history), but: somethin' real significant was happenin' here in yer home Country a few years earlier. Maybe it's time to crack the ol' textbooks n' bone up!
 

rolmops

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

OldMercsRule said:
rolmops said:
OldMercsRule said:
rolmops said:
So what is it,do more Germans fear US than Iran,or do the Germans deem the USA more threatening than Iran(literal translation of your german phrase)?
There is a big difference between these 2 statements.

[colour=blue]Yer right Rolmops, maybe America would not surrender as the rest of the world likely will, (at least as the 'enlightened' European elites plan ta do). VERY DANGEROUS TO RESIST DEFEAT to pacifists who are anxious to welcome and kiss their approaching masters. JR[/colour]

Merc, I do not think that you can read the minds of all these "liberal "European elites
I do know that Europe went through 2 world wars mostly fought on European soil.In the first one about 20 million people died and in the second one it was roughly a hundred million overall.This has made most Europeans very wary of war,and understandably so.
The USA has fought all of its major wars far from its own shores and Americans mostly perceive war as something you go do elsewhere.
That being said ,I also know that the Germans have a bit of a history as tough fighters and I for one do not believe that they are the surrendering type of people.

[colour=blue]Boy Rolmops All that fancy European learnin' n' all, and ya never heard of ol General Sherman? Hmmmmm, I guess ya never heard of ol' Abe Lincoln either. I'm not impressed that the University in Holland was so hot after all. Let me share some inconvienant facts with ya. The US civil war, which was really a WAR between states was the MOST bloody n' distructive war we ever had by a wide margin. Guess ya never heard that before eh? As to mind readin' I'm judging actions and words: Rolmops. JR [/colour]ps; The date of Das Kapital, Marx n Engles was 1867, (the most murderous philosophy in history), but: somethin' real significant was happenin' here in yer home Country a few years earlier. Maybe it's time to crack the ol' textbooks n' bone up!

Wrong again merc.
I did not forget and yes I did learn about it. Although I must admit that European historians are more concerned about Europe and its wars.Probably a patriotic thing.
As for Marx ,Hegel and Engels.Yes I did study their philosophy,but they impressed me far less than you seem to think.While in holland I was mostly interested in beer and the blue eyed blondes,and I did an in depth study of both.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

[/quote]

The USA has fought all of its major wars far from its own shores and Americans mostly perceive war as something you go do elsewhere.

[/quote]

[colour=blue]Were ya tryin' ta trick ol' Murky? This statement seems false on the face of the statement. Do Liberals always make illogical satements ta keep people thinkin' that they have some scews loose, or is it that some of that smoke ya been talkin' ta Murky n' teasin' him 'bout? Where can Murky get some? JR[/colour] ps sounds like Poly Sci studies in Holland were very similar ta Murky's 'sperience here in God's Country. Did ya get grades or did ya grade yerself 'cause "grades r' only fer cattle n' all"?
 

QC

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

rolmops said:
I do think our judgment of me is unfair.
I thought I was a little tough too, but this one is not a shade of grey for me . . . ;)

rolmops said:
I have learned to never forget,to tell the story and to never allow a similar tragedy,which mostly annihilated my own family, to ever happen again.
That is why I was harsh . . .

rolmops said:
Now from here on out we may differ in our opinions about when to take action and what that action should be,but I do believe that our ideas are the same.
Sounds like a great basis for further discussion. I consider you one of the best sources of alternative positions here, but genocide is a lesson I learned very young as well. Had a good teacher in my mother.

I bristle at tolerance when it is misdirected. I now believe much of Europe has learned that the road to Peace is to not judge anyone or anything (except Americans, Israelis, Jews and Christians). IMHO the opposite is much closer to the truth.
 

RPJS

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Re: More Germans fear US than Iran

Here's another slant on this one.

The Germans are a race who's thinking tends to be very logical. If you look at the military power of both the USA and Iran the logical country to fear would be the USA as they are the only country of the 2 who could be a military threat.
 
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