1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

[Devil_Inside]

Hi everybody! Few weeks ago I bought an 18' Grady White with a 1983 Johnson 6o hp outboard. The boat was very cheap and needed some work done, so I've spend the past 10 days working on it, and today was supposed to be the BIG day - first time on the water with her.

When I bought the boat I knew that it will need a lot of work, but for my surprise the engine was working very good. I replaced the spark plugs, cleaned the carburetors, replaced the gear oil and adjusted the throttle. I always ran the engine with the "water ears" on and everything seemed to be fine. So today I filled the tanks and ran the engine for one last time in my driveway just to make sure that everything was fine - and it was!

So here comes the bad part - I went to the lake and launched the boat; started the engine and I couldn't get it to idle... For my surprise the engine would die in less than a minute even with the choke all the way up.. I fought with it for and hour and finally gave up. Went back home, put the water ears on and the engine ran just fine! After that I took and empty garbage can which I filled with water and submerged the engine, but same thing happened - ran like cr*p and wouldn't idle... WHY IT DOESN'T WANT TO WORK IN THE WATER?!?

 

[jtexas]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

welcome to iboats! seems like everybody experiences this phenomenon sooner or later, it's very common.

Underwater exhaust. Backpressure. Even in neutral, the water puts a load on the engine that isn't there when its on the muffs. You can't set the idle speed or timing until you put the boat in the water.

When you said "cleaned the carbs", unless by "cleaned" you meant, "disassembled, soaked overnight in carb cleaner, blew out passages with compressed air (or aerosol carb cleaner), reassembled with new carb kits, readjusted mixture screws (if equipped), and link'd & sync'd", then they're still dirty. If she runs like a dream on the muffs, maybe even idle in gear in the water, but bogs when you put the hammer down, that'll be the answer.

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

Thanks for the quick reply


Well I didn't do all that to the carburetors. And I know I should sooner or later, but right now I am almost broke with all the expences that I had on the boat so far...

As a matter of fact it really works like a dream with the muffs on and I can turn off the choke only after 2-3 minutes. I tried to put the motor in gear and didn't have any problems at all. (in my driveway) But the motor wouldn't stay on for more than a minute in the water... I tried to gently rev the engine by manually pulling the throttle and it was all fine, but once I let go the throttle the motor would die before I can even think about placing it in gear


I forgot to mention that the engine has good spark and good compression on both cyllinders. The guy I bought it from just replaced the head gasket and the fuel pump.

 

[jtexas]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

you're on the five yard line, just need that little extra effort to push over the goal line...your carbs have fixed jets, no mixture screws to mess with. Make sure the throttle plates are parallel, closed at idle & horizontal at WOT.

There's an idle adjustment screw, starboard side, horizontal, slotted, screwed in to a spring-loaded nut (keeps it from vibrating in & out) - set your idle at 1000 to 1100 [make that on the muffs, that should be around 700 or 800 in the water. Somebody jump in if those numbers look wrong, I'm going from memory, I don't have a manual for that motor handy.

If the previous owner, the one who did the head gasket, is a friend of yours, ask why the head gasket blew...did the engine overtemp and if so, did he find the cause. Otherwise you risk history repeating itself. Consider replacing the water pump impeller and rebuilding the carbs as a preventive measure, as a clogged jet can make a cylinder run lean possibly leading to blown head gasket. Also ask which cylinder blew, and what about the condition of the cylinder wall, piston & ring. If you can get it, that info might be helpful for future reference, but don't lose a lot of sleep over a motor with good compression.

Also note that your motor will be happiest with champion QL77JC4.

And get yourself a manual, you'll be lost without it and it'll easily pay for itself many times over.

[edited - go with tashasdad's idle speed - sorry bout that.....]

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

you said choke all the way up. are you talking about the lever you lift, on the shifter. if so that is the fast idle lever, and not the choke. the choke is either a button under or above the key you press in, or you press the key in to activate. i like to set idle on muffs around 850, then readjust in the water, idle in the water is set with the shifter in forward, and set the idle to 650-700 in gear. it will idle higher in neutral. you carb has fixed jets, and they have to be removed when cleaning. and reassemble with new kit.
this is the special tool to remove the jets. can be made from quailty screwdriver
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/frankr_photos/FixedJetScrewdriver2.jpg?t=1177353186

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

If the previous owner, the one who did the head gasket, is a friend of yours, ask why the head gasket blew...did the engine overtemp and if so, did he find the cause. Otherwise you risk history repeating itself. Consider replacing the water pump impeller and rebuilding the carbs as a preventive measure, as a clogged jet can make a cylinder run lean possibly leading to blown head gasket. Also ask which cylinder blew, and what about the condition of the cylinder wall, piston & ring. If you can get it, that info might be helpful for future reference, but don't lose a lot of sleep over a motor with good compression.

The guy I bought it from isn't a friend of mine unfortunately... I found the boat in the WantAd However I know why he replaced the head gasket - he brought the engine to a marine shop because of the same idling problem.. and the mechanic replaced the fuel pump and did a compression test and told the guy that one of the cylinders had lower compression than the other - that's why the head gasket was replaced. The only thing that they didn't touch on the motor was the carburetors...

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

you can rebuild the carbs, but until you set it up in the water, it's not going to run. the idle speed has to be set for it to run.

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

you said choke all the way up. are you talking about the lever you lift, on the shifter. if so that is the fast idle lever, and not the choke. the choke is either a button under or above the key you press in, or you press the key in to activate.

Yes, I meant the lever, I am sorry :redface: Btw there is something else that I need to do so I can start the engine - land or water - I have to open the engine cover and flick a red switch, which I am being told is called a fuel diaphram... I should be able to do it from the ignition key, but it doesn't work - I probably messed up the wires again

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

the red switch is the manual lever for the primer. ( the new way to choke the engine, it lets fuel directly into the intake manifold, rather than closing, choke butterflys in the carb) the primer is activated electrically by pushing in the key. turn key to on position, push key in, you should hear it click.

starting should be pump bulb, idle lever all the way up, key to on, push key for 8 count, turn key.

set your idle faster on muffs, by adjusting the idle stop screw. and it should running in the water

 

[jtexas]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

... one of the cylinders had lower compression than the other - that's why the head gasket was replaced. ...

That's a good answer. Guess he didn't want to spend any more money or time on it.

The red switch is for the engine's priming system - in place of traditional choke plates - its a valve that lets gas into the cylinders for cold starting. The switch has three positions, manual on/off, and remote operation. There's a solenoid there actuated by pushing in on the keyswitch with the key turned to "on" (unless you have a separate button marked "choke" or "prime"). If the solenoid's not working, look first for a wiring fault, bad ground or something, its the "C" terminal on the keyswitch, purple/white wire in the wiring harness. Turn key on and push to prime, hold for a few seconds, turn to "start" while continuing to push in.

That's cold start only, warm engine should just need a quick turn of the key.

If you've been turning the primer on and leaving it on, and the engine's been running with it like that (instead of flooding out), then you definately need a carb rebuild.

Your carbs aren't spitting fuel back out at idle, are they?
What do the spark plugs look like after its been idling awhile?

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

If you've been turning the primer on and leaving it on, and the engine's been running with it like that (instead of flooding out), then you definately need a carb rebuild.

Your carbs aren't spitting fuel back out at idle, are they?
What do the spark plugs look like after its been idling awhile?

I tried to run the engine with the red switch on, but the engine dies immediately. The carbs aren't spitting fuel as far as I know. The spark plugs look fine - one of them looks like brand new and the other one has a little bit darker color, but there is no oil whatsoever.

I will check the wires for the primer later on today. It could be a bad ignition lock too... but honestly I don't have a problem running the engine like that. I can take the cover off while I am in the boat and play with the switch


So you are 99% sure that I need to clean/rebuild the carbs to fix my problem? You mentioned something about "back pressure" on the exhaust once the engine is submerged - is that cause by the idle settings or there could be something else going on?

Honestly I am affraid to take the carburetors apart and maybe I will bring the engine to a shop, but I want to know what could be wrong with it so I can ask for an estimate... If it is ~100$ I will let them do it, but if it is more I'd have to learn how to take a carburetor apart quickly The only manual that I have for the engine is the one directly form www.johnson.com, however this is not really a manual, but some diagrams for the components. I'd love to buy one, but the cheepest one I found is 40$...

Thank you very much for trying to help me

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

when the engine starts you turn the red knob back to the off postion. that $40 for the manual is the first 1/2 hour at the shop. you won't get carbs done for $200. order the kits, they come with a diagram. also the the site you noted, if you clik literature, engine diagrams you can see every parts of the engine, and parts list.

the back pressure on the exhaust exists the motor thru the prop, water causes backpressure. as i have said several times, start it on muffs, turn the red know to off, now set the idle stop screw so the engine idles higher than you think it should. now take it to the water, and start the same way, i bet it will start and run, then adjust the idle stop to where it will run in gear at the slowest speed. take out of gear, and put back in. then take it for a spin and see if it will run at higher speeds. when you've done this, we'll decide whether to tear into the carbs. i've only been around boats 47 years. i might know how to make them run.

 

[jtexas]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

What he said.............deciding on a carb rebuild is usually a matter of ruling out other stuff first......long as both cylinders are making power she ought at least to idle in the water.

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

now set the idle stop screw so the engine idles higher than you think it should.

I am not sure where is that idle stop screw, but if that's located on the throttle cable, that screw is set all to way out... There is another screw that is located under the flywheel with a rubber end on one side... There are also two big bolts on the carbs that might be for adjustment.

I will try to take a picture of the engine so you guys can show me where is that adjustment screw :redface:

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

If like the shop said, it has low compression in one cylinder it can create starting and idling issues that no amount of carb cleaning can fix. If replacing the head gasket fixed the low compression problem, then like TD said, cleaning the carbs and adjusting the idle will help. Do a compression check to see if both cylinders are close.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

You mentioned earlier that one of the plugs looks brand new while the others show at least some discoloration. You had best check for good fat spark on all cylinders. The clean spark plug is apparently not getting fuel. Head gaskets are usually replaced as the result of overheating which distorts things and pops the gasket. If the engine overheated, there may be other damage in the affected cylinder. With the engine running on muffs, pull each plug wire one at a time. If you pull plug wire and the engine sounds the same you found a dead cylinder. And just so you know, what you think is a perfectly running engine on muffs, may indeed not be as you are finding out. An engine will idle pretty well with only half its cylinders operating. Put a load on it and it falls flat on its face. Getting a service manual is sound advice as right now you are simply shotgunning problems with no real diagnostic effort. If you can't afford a manual, check your local library. They generally have Clymers and Seloc manuals. They may not have the one for your exact year but close is better than none.

 

[irdir]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

The idle adjustment screw is item number 51 in the picture. The other screw adjustment with the rubber bumper is the full-throttle spark advance stop. Make sure you do not touch that screw because it will mess up your high-speed timing. I'd follow Silvertip's advice on finding a dead cylinder before you adjust anything or take anything apart. It's only two cylinders so it's easy to check for a dead one. Also check to see if your getting a hot blue spark out of each plug by taking out both spark plugs and then grounding them against the head while having someone else crank the motor. If you get a hot spark out of both plugs then you should look into fuel issues. Before touching the carbs, turn the idle adjustment screw in a few turns and see if that solves anything. If not, carb work may be necessary. We do the simple stuff first because I know of countless times where an issue could have been fixed with a simple turn of a screw but instead drastic things were done and a lot more work was involved. It's not worth messing with something that's perfectly fine.

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

Well thanks for all the help guys....unfortunately I have some very bad news for myself - one cylinder has compression of 150 psi and the other has barely 30 psi

I guess that means mystery solved, but there is no way I can fix that, unfortunately. After the compression test I did a leak down test and hooked my compressor to the head gasket, but it didn't hear anything and again the head gasket was replaced recently. Than I sprayed some oil over the cylinder and ran another compression test and the compression went up from 30 psi to almost 100 psi, for seconds anyway. A friend of mine gave me a good idea: he said that the piston ring might be stuck and if so I might be able to release it by pouring some ATF or PB into the cylinder head and let it stay like that overnight. I hope he's right, but there is nothing I can loose right now so I did it and I will do another test tomorrow.

 

[hoeser]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

I would use seafoam deep creep to try and free the ring, if it is indeed stuck. Look up "decarb" procedures in the forum, there are many threads, also a great FAQ thread.

 

[Devil_Inside]

Re: 1983 Johnson 60 hp - Works on the driveway not in the lake?!?

I would use seafoam deep creep to try and free the ring, if it is indeed stuck. Look up "decarb" procedures in the forum, there are many threads, also a great FAQ thread.

Yup, I heard very good things for the Deep Creep oil so if the ATF doesn't work I will try that also. I am not sure where to find it though, and I also heard that is very expensive - 50$ or so...

If that doesn't work as well I will take the cylinder head out and if the cylinder isn't scored I will probably rebuild the motor with the help of some friends. If the cylinder is scored I guess I won't be fishing anytime soon since I am almost broke and I cannot afford a new engine

If one of you guys has a 1983 Johnson 60 hp that needs some work, but has a good compression please let me know. I am located in MA, but I can travel to RI, CT, ME, NH and maybe NY