Another Battery Question.....

[Huntaholic]

New member here, was referred on another forum.

Here's the skinny:

2003 Skeeter ZX200
Motorguide Tour Edition Trolling motor, 36v/109lb thrust (Model #7109v)
Charging System International, Four Bank Pro SE (Sportsman Edition) charging system
Two Dual Pro Charger Remote Charging indicators for battery charge level.
Each indicator will read two batteries, so I have Indicator 1 on Battery 1 & 2 and Indicator 2 on battery 3 & 4

I had two trolling batteries go dead and the third was fine (at least when we tested it). I bought two batteries and installed them. As I took the leads off the existing dead batteries, I zip tied them through the ring terminals so I could put them back on easily and wouldn't have any crossed wiring. I put everything in and checked my four pro and I've got two batterys not even showing up on the Banks LED's or the Remote LED's.

I looked at the LED readout for the Banks, nothing.....
I looked at the banks for the charge indicator. Battery 1 and Battery 4 (motor) had LED's reading but 2 & 3 showed nothing.....

I have the batteries trolling batteries wired in series, and here's how everything is wired:

Main Cables to trolling motor plug:
Red (from Trolling motor) to Battery 1 Red (+)
Battery 1 Black (-) to Battery 2 Red (+)
Battery 2 Black (-) to Battery 3 Red (+)
Battery 3 Black (-) to Trolling motor
Battery 4 - Starting Battery/electronics (dual purpose)

Cables from Banks 4 Pro Charging system to Batteries:
Cable 1: Red (+) to Battery 1 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 1 Black (-)
Cable 2: Red (+) to Battery 2 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 2 Black (-)
Cable 3: Red (+) to Battery 3 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 3 Black (-)
Cable 4: Red (+) to Battery 4 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 4 Black (-)

Cables from Banks LED Readout to Batteries:
First Cable 1: Red (+) to Battery 1 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 1 Black (-)
First Cable 2: Red (+) to Battery 2 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 2 Black (-)
Second Cable 1: Red (+) to Battery 3 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 3 Black (-)
Second Cable 2: Red (+) to Battery 4 Red (+); Black (-) to Battery 4 Black (-)

From everything I know about wiring this is all correct, it just seems that I took something off and it went Murphy on me. Maybe a loose connection or one of those in line fuses giving me fits, but I've checked everything and even went as far to remove all leads to all four batteries, rearrange them and wire them independantly to make sure I didn't have a cross, run the series wire and still nothing on the indicators.

Anyone got ideas on what happened?????

Also when I put the meter on the batteries, I get 12 volts on each battery independantly and 36 volts when in series and I do not have a switch that goes from 24-36v or from 12-36v.

Anyone got an idea on what's going on???
All ideas will be welcomed, since I can't think of anything!!

 

[chuckz]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

Each battery should read 12 volts and three batteries in series 36 volts. This is correct.

I don't know your system but it seems to me that there should be isolators between batteries one, two and three to allow for independent charging and monitoring. The isolators would be large diodes in each series connection.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

I am still studying your wiring explanation so this is preliminary.
One thing I noticed is that you have your battery indicators wired to read each battery individually. This could be a problem. Your batteries are wired in series to get 36 volts. This in effect turns the individual batteries into one big 36V battery. Unless your battery indicators are rated for 36 volts this could burn them out causing a short and killing your batteries.
This is further evidenced in that you are getting nothing out of the indicators.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

I think, faulty charger.

Indicators wired individually to each battery in the 36V series (same as the charging leads), each gets only 12 volts, looks right to me.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

On a "series" string of batteries, there is no way a two battery condition gauge panel can work with a common ground for the gauge and Bat 1 and Bat 2 leads that are switched between battery positive terminals. In other words a three lead gauge panel. If the gauge panel has four leads and the switch does break the ground to BAT 1 for example and switches to BAT 2 -, then it will work. Otherwise BAT 1 would read BAT 1. When switched to BAT 2 you would read 24V since BAT 2 + is feeding the gauge and the gauge is getting ground from BAT 1 -. Those gauge panels are generally designed for "parallel" battery banks or two bank systems (two strings of 24 or 36V batteries). They are not designed (generally) to read individual battery condition in a series string.

 

[Snoopywoopy]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

Did you disconnect the AC charging system AC power cord before trying to install the new batteries?

Did you clean the 2 new battery terminals prior to installation (clean until bright, if they are oxidized, they will not read properly or at all, we're talking small voltages and milliamps here).

You can also try just moving the battery 1 or 4 connections to batteries 2 or 3 to check for connection issues. If they work, then you have isolated the problem to connections. If not, then you might have a FUBAR charger and 2 FUBAR monitors, although I think you'll find the problem is in the connections.

Same goes for the battery monitors.

Swiped from the manufacturer's web site:

http://www.dualpro.com/new/faq.html

Q: When I plug my CSI charger in to begin charging my batteries, the red lights will not turn on but the unit has a slight hum to it. It has been a long time since I last used the charger. Is there a problem with the charger or my batteries?

A: No, if batteries are left for extended periods of time without being charged, the voltage of the batteries will continually fall. If your CSI charger observes abnormally low voltage on one or all of your batteries, it will not allow itself to charge until the voltage is raised by another means. The easiest way to do this is by using a basic manual charger for a short amount of time while leaving the CSI charger connected to the batteries and plugged in.

Q: One of the banks of my CSI charger is not showing any LED indications but the other banks are operating normally, is there a problem with my charger or my battery?

A: Since all of our charging systems consist of totally independent chargers, it is very simple to troubleshoot to see where the problem lies. Simply swap the location of the affected bank and another bank on the two batteries and operate the CSI charger. If the light indications remain the same (same bank still does not light), please call us at 1-800-742-2740 or send us an email message and we will work with you to resolve the problem. If the light indications are reversed on the CSI charger, this indicates that there may be a problem with the battery attached to the bank that will not light.

Post up and tell us what you find.

 

[Huntaholic]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

Each battery should read 12 volts and three batteries in series 36 volts. This is correct.

I don't know your system but it seems to me that there should be isolators between batteries one, two and three to allow for independent charging and monitoring. The isolators would be large diodes in each series connection.

Yes there are little isolators between the - of one battery and the + of the next on each of the two straps.

I am still studying your wiring explanation so this is preliminary.
One thing I noticed is that you have your battery indicators wired to read each battery individually. This could be a problem. Your batteries are wired in series to get 36 volts. This in effect turns the individual batteries into one big 36V battery. Unless your battery indicators are rated for 36 volts this could burn them out causing a short and killing your batteries.
This is further evidenced in that you are getting nothing out of the indicators.

Wiring them in series, once the foot pedal trigger is depressed the circuit is completed and it puts the load on all three batteries thus creating one big battery at 36v. With the switch not being pressed the circuit is broken so therefore each battery will charge independantly at 12v.

On a "series" string of batteries, there is no way a two battery condition gauge panel can work with a common ground for the gauge and Bat 1 and Bat 2 leads that are switched between battery positive terminals. In other words a three lead gauge panel. If the gauge panel has four leads and the switch does break the ground to BAT 1 for example and switches to BAT 2 -, then it will work. Otherwise BAT 1 would read BAT 1. When switched to BAT 2 you would read 24V since BAT 2 + is feeding the gauge and the gauge is getting ground from BAT 1 -. Those gauge panels are generally designed for "parallel" battery banks or two bank systems (two strings of 24 or 36V batteries). They are not designed (generally) to read individual battery condition in a series string.

I know the two battery condition gauge panel worked with the original batteries. I'm confused from interpreting your post....sorry simple mind. I probably should have clarified, they're LED readouts with 5 red led's then a green one. What happens is the LED's light up showing the state of charge existing in the batteries (independantly) then are green when fully charged, at least they did before I changed the battery's. I do not have any gauges that have any switches to "flip" from 24v to 36v and from what I understand about power, wiring in series increases the voltage and wiring in parallel increases the amperage. I think I understand what you typed but not quite positive.


SnoopyWoopy, I did disconnect the charger when removing the batteries. I also took sandpaper to the terminals to clean them and put a anti-oxidizing lubricant we use for DC power connections on the terminal post of the batteries and the terminals.

When I took all the batteries out and moved them around, I did try moving batteries around and seeing if its reading. Thing is it'll read fine if I only hook up one battery....but when I start adding to the string, it goes blank.

I think I'll have to call the manufacturer on this one.....

If y'all have any other idea's please throw them by....I'm all out.

Thanks guys.
Hunt.

 

[Huntaholic]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

Don't know if this matters but the original batteries were Dual Pro LS2700's, I still have one in the series. The two new batteries are Everstart Deep Cycle Trolling 27DC-6 batteries.

Dual Pro LS2700's
1180 MCA
930 CCA
175 minutes Reserve Capacity

Everstart Deep Cycle 27DC-6
720 MCA
600 CCA
115 hours Reserve.

Could the problem be that the LS2700 is a dual stage battery (Cranking & Trolling) and the Everstarts are only trolling???

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

OK -- is this battery monitoring system built into the charger or is it a separate monitor system. If it's a separate monitor system, my point about only three wires that feeds that dual battery monitoring system is still valid -- switch or no switch. If there are four wires its not an issue as each readout would have pos and neg pair. With a three wire readout, you have two pos leads and a common ground. That won't work with a series string. If that's what you had and it worked before, it was not working correctly. If that still doesn't make sense, I'll draw a picture but I do need to know what it is you have and it would also make it easier for us if you drew a picture of the entire lash up. I also feel you have some wiring issues. Start with the basics. Disconnect the entire string. Start with one charger output on a single battery. If that works normally, add the second, but don't series connect the batteries. Then add the third and fourth. If you have all four charging normally, you know the charger is good. Now add one monitor, then the second. If things go haywire, you know where the issue is.

 

[Huntaholic]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

OK -- is this battery monitoring system built into the charger or is it a separate monitor system. If it's a separate monitor system, my point about only three wires that feeds that dual battery monitoring system is still valid -- switch or no switch. If there are four wires its not an issue as each readout would have pos and neg pair. With a three wire readout, you have two pos leads and a common ground. That won't work with a series string. If that's what you had and it worked before, it was not working correctly. If that still doesn't make sense, I'll draw a picture but I do need to know what it is you have and it would also make it easier for us if you drew a picture of the entire lash up. I also feel you have some wiring issues. Start with the basics. Disconnect the entire string. Start with one charger output on a single battery. If that works normally, add the second, but don't series connect the batteries. Then add the third and fourth. If you have all four charging normally, you know the charger is good. Now add one monitor, then the second. If things go haywire, you know where the issue is.

I gotcha now! I have a seperate monitor system that has two cables per monitor system and in each of the cables is one black wire and one red wire with a 1a fuse inline, this is mounted at the passenger side of the boat where we can quickly look at it to see the battery status. The charger itself also has five little red LED's and one green LED just like each monitor block and the charger unit is mounted in the storage compartment under the passenger seat.

I'll try to get pictures of the entire wiring scheme, chargers and monitor system tomorrow.

I'll try to disconnect everything tomorrow and see if that get's me going, if not I don't know what happened...

I appreciate all the info...keep it coming.
Hunt.

 

[Snoopywoopy]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

When I took all the batteries out and moved them around, I did try moving batteries around and seeing if its reading. Thing is it'll read fine if I only hook up one battery....but when I start adding to the string, it goes blank.

I think I'll have to call the manufacturer on this one.....

You could try my patented 3-step repair procedure. I've managed to restore everything I've used this procedure on to working order.

Step 1. Remove offending object from boat per manufacturer's instructions.

Step 2. Take offending object to large concrete-paved area (driveways work best) and toss offending object onto pavement with as much force as you can.

Step 3. Did this fix your problem? If yes, reinstall offending object per manufacturer's instructions. If no, replace offending object with suitable new non-offending object.

Hmm, I just reread this post, I should have said "replace" not restore. Still, works for me.

Snoops

 

[Huntaholic]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

You could try my patented 3-step repair procedure. I've managed to restore everything I've used this procedure on to working order.

Step 1. Remove offending object from boat per manufacturer's instructions.

Step 2. Take offending object to large concrete-paved area (driveways work best) and toss offending object onto pavement with as much force as you can.

Step 3. Did this fix your problem? If yes, reinstall offending object per manufacturer's instructions. If no, replace offending object with suitable new non-offending object.

Hmm, I just reread this post, I should have said "replace" not restore. Still, works for me.

Snoops

That's a good one....

I've always used the Hammer Method - If it doesn't fit...get a bigger hammer. If it still doesn't fit, beat it into submission with the biggest hammer you can find.

 

[Huntaholic]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

Here's a wiring diagram on how everything is ran with the charging system, the monitor readout, and batteries going to the trolling motor and main motor.

I'm starting to think it's the charging unit, I took everything apart again this weekend and tried everypossible scenerio with all the suggestion here and a few others I heard through the forums..... still bank 2 and bank 3 are non responsive.....

Thanks again to everyone for the help....

 

[PondTunes]

Re: Another Battery Question.....

That's a good one....
I've always used the Hammer Method - If it doesn't fit...get a bigger hammer. If it still doesn't fit, beat it into submission with the biggest hammer you can find.

No need to break out Ford tools on a boat