Electric or hydraulic brakes

[PondTunes]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

My original trailer for my 28' pontoon boat was 53" wide from rail to rail. It rode between the toons and had no brakes.

Even walking on the boat while it was on the trailer you could feel the boat sway and move. Pulling it was even more un-nerving as it felt like it wanted to tip over even around the most mild curves.

So I sold the above trailer for $1000.00 on craigslist and started building a new one. I ended up building a float on and put electric brakes on both axles. Total end cost including LED lighting was about $1800.00 The trailer has 3500 lb axles under it which are overkill but 3500 lb wasn't much more expensive than the light duty ones. I picked pure electric brakes because I already had an electric brake controller installed in my truck from the factory.

$700.00 - Axles w/ brakes, Wheels, Tires, Springs & Shackles
$800.00 - The frame is 5" Steel C Channel, 4" channel make up the bracing and tongue, the angle bracing is 1/4" Angle iron. Various steel plates for gussets & bracing.
$90.00 - LED Tail/Turn Lights & Clearance/Marker Lights, + Wiring.
$40.00 - 1/2 Gallon Penetrol (For priming) 1/2 Gallon Rustoleum Black
$70.00 - Lumber/Carpet/Glue for bunks & center walkway.
$100.00 - Safety chains, Coupler, trailer jack, wiring harness to fit truck plug.

The difference is night and day. The boat pulls like a dream now, it doesn't wobble or sway when turning. When set properly the brakes will engage and will stop on a dime. Too low and they don't help much, too high and they will slide the trailer tires. The trailer also backs much easier than the previous trailer (mostly due to the wheels being back a little farther)

To answer the actual question at hand tho:
I would venture to say that ANY brakes are better than NO brakes.

If you don't have anything with electric brakes or a brake controller you will need to either install or have one installed in your tow vehicle.

Then you'll need to buy a set of brakes to fit your axles, these also require some minor wiring.

Surge brakes work on inertia; the coupler will move as the tow vehicle's brakes are applied this movement moves a piston which pushes fluid into the brakes. the harder you stop the tow vehicle the harder the trailer stops.
For this setup you will have to have to replace the brakes (wonder why they were cut in the first place) run new brake lines (more difficult than a couple of wires) and install a coupler/master cylinder. Most couplers also offer a reverse lockout so that when you are backing the brakes are disabled, most of the time this isn't automatic but I'm sure automatic ones are offered that could be connected to your reverse light or a toggle switch.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

This is the electric/hydraulic brake controller that I use:

You get the best of both worlds. You can control your braking from inside your vehicle and don't have the problems of electric brakes in salt water.

The only drawback is that you have to turn down the gain of the vehicle controller when you launch your boat and your trailer is empty or the trailer tires will be skidding all over the place. This of course would also happen with electric brakes.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I always thought those narrow pontoon trailers were for yard use only, not for over the highway.



How are those cable operated disc brakes actuated?
I don't recall ever seeing that type in the U.S.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

At least with trailer brakes, your trailer wouldn't be pushing the rear of your truck around.

Over braking of the trailer versus no brake action on the rear vehicle brakes was the cause of the push. In a panic stop, the truck leans forward, thus unloading the rear axle and actuating the rear anti-lock brakes, the trailer brakes are actuated by electricity and come on with inertia determined by the controller.
In wet weather this reaction was all too common. With no brakes, the trailer stayed behind the truck and didn't lock the wheels. At least then both the trailer and rear wheels of the truck stayed inline and a simple pumping of the pedal would regain control. With the trailer brakes and front vehicle brakes locked, it would try to jackknife down the crown of the road. Applying only the trailer brakes would straighten the rig, but would do little to stop you, it only slides the trailer wheels. I normally unplug the Rear anti-lock module now when I tow, it give me full rear braking and I don't have to worry about a front wheel lockup. Sometimes I really wonder what the engineers were thinking when the decided to put such a system on a pickup. Later years went to full ABS, which works fine. The problem wasn't so much with the trailer or brakes but with the truck's design. What really felt like was happening was not that the trailer was passing the truck so much as the under braked rear end of the truck tried to continue past the front of the truck, thus coming around bringing the hitched trailer with it. The first time this happened to me was with a 26' tag along RV trailer in the mountains on sleet covered roads. I soon found and disconnected the RABS module. I'm sure that I'll here how unsafe this is too, but just think how many of us drove just fine for all of these years in trucks with plain brakes, no anti-lock, no air bags, and we did just fine.

Several here mention 5 wire hookups for surge brakes, that only applies to newer units, none of my trailers are anywhere new enough to have any such feature. The surge brakes I removed were the type that if you backed up or went down hill the brakes would apply. You had to get out and pin the master cylinder so it wouldn't move in reverse or back the brake adjustment way down so you could run in the hills. There was no way I was ever going to put up with that, let alone with having to free the things up every time I wanted to use it. What pretty much ended up happening was that they just seized up after a few months of sitting and after that the system was about useless. The lines weren't stainless, the wheel cylinders were plain cast iron and even the backing plates were plain steel. After about two seasons here it was all gone anyhow. My newest tandem axle trailer is a 1978, it came new with no brakes, no provisions for them either. My newest trailer overall is a 2004 Load Rite single axle, its rated at 2700lbs and has no brakes from the factory. My oldest tandem is a Web-On tandem with no brakes, and never had either. Its got a 4500lb rating and has two straight axles, no brake flanges and came originally with four 10" rims and tires, (try finding brakes that would fit inside a 10' rim). I've since put 12' rims on it just since their more readily available, and I wasn't going to pay what they wanted for the odd ball sized 10" tires.
It hauls a 17' trihull that probably only weighs about 1400 lbs wet. As far as I know it came new with that boat.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

Several here mention 5 wire hookups for surge brakes, that only applies to newer units

Any surge brake unit can use the 5 wire hookup. You just have to add a backup valve in the line going to the brakes. The valve stops the flow of hydraulic fluid to the brakes while the vehicle is in reverse.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

Great thead!

Question: Do the electric over hydraulic units use a standardelectric brake controller? I have one installed in my van for use with utility trailers that have electric brakes. It sure would be nice to be able to use it!

 

[Arima90]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I'm not sure about the electric setup but I will say this about the hydraulic units. Their not without problems, here's issues I have ran into with my disc units on a tandem axle trailer: 1) Pads don't last, not because they wear but because they fall apart, and I rinse every time out of the salt 2)master cylinder failer (somehow moisture gets in the units) 3) Couldn't get rebuild kits for Callipers (new units are expensive)

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I'm not sure about the electric setup but I will say this about the hydraulic units. Their not without problems, here's issues I have ran into with my disc units on a tandem axle trailer: 1) Pads don't last, not because they wear but because they fall apart, and I rinse every time out of the salt 2)master cylinder failer (somehow moisture gets in the units) 3) Couldn't get rebuild kits for Callipers (new units are expensive)

I've rebuilt a few of those calipers, but its usually a matter of just matching up seals, the biggest problem is finding one thats worth rebuilding. Most of the ones I've seen are so corroded that their not worth bothering with.

I've seen a lot of pads separate from their backing, even on the stainless systems. The pad backing rusts out from behind the lining. I think rinsing the brakes while hot also has a lot to do with this problem.
I don't think I've ever seen a surge brake master cylinder that worked right beyond it's original installation, they all either rust up internally or the pivot mechanisms seize up or jam.
I was never a big fan of disc brakes on a trailer, they have too much drag even when not applied. It's a toss up between gas mileage while towing and the ability to really rinse down your brake set up.
Until someone builds a brake set up that is 100% corrosion proof that can withstand normal use and take the heat, brakes on a boat trailer will be more or less a disposable or annual replacement item.
Stainless steel that will not corrode under any condition would most likely have safety concerns or other strength related issues, but it would be nice to see a brake set up that is all stainless, that means lugs, lug nuts, hubs, bearings, etc. I was told that that most stainless steel doesn't have the strength and wear characteristics that steel has, not to mention the initial cost factor. I have several other stainless steel parts that have cracked or fatigued over time too.
Maybe we have someone here that's more familiar with the different types or properties of stainless steel that can better explain? From what I've been told it's either cost prohibitive or a safety factor in using a grade of stainless steel that is totally corrosion proof.

 

[tommays]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I work in SS in a pharmaceutical plant welding all the sani pipeing and repiaring the bent and broken mixing blades


1. The price of REAL 304 or 316 SS is crazy and i am not talking about that fake crap showing up on boat parts with the rusty streaks running down the side of your boat


2. It is TOUGH material to machine but NOT as strong as and equal piece of a more common steel (All the stuff they take out is what gives steel its strenth)

But done right it does NOT break


3.Any machine that bends or forms it ECT generaly has 1/2 capacity when working SS


4. SS loves to sieze to other metals making the better grades a bad pick in brake parts

5. For all the money the SS brakes cost they are all RIGHT out of China


Tommays

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I also had no brakes on my trailer, as the guy I bought it from removed them. So I used it for a few months without the breaks, towing with 2003 Suburban and I felt it needed the brakes. So I installed Electric brakes for about 300, as I still had the Drums. It is like night and day, its now a joy to tow the boat, as I am not over working trying to drive it or stop it. Now its just get in and go and it was the best modification that I have made to it.

Bryan

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

Great thead!

Question: Do the electric over hydraulic units use a standardelectric brake controller? I have one installed in my van for use with utility trailers that have electric brakes. It sure would be nice to be able to use it!

Yes..you use the same controller.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

I was never a big fan of disc brakes on a trailer, they have too much drag even when not applied. It's a toss up between gas mileage while towing and the ability to really rinse down your brake set up.
Until someone builds a brake set up that is 100% corrosion proof that can withstand normal use and take the heat, brakes on a boat trailer will be more or less a disposable or annual replacement item.

There will be no measurable difference in rolling resistance with or without disc brakes. The amount of drag is tiny compared to the drag of just the tires.

The Kodiak disc brakes that I have are an awesome setup. I just have the e-coated versions and they are holding up very well(no corrosion) after 1 1/2 years of saltwater use. I flush very well after I dunk the trailer in salt water.

My first set of disc brakes that I had were the TieDown stainless ones. I would not recommend these as the discs are not vented and will warp... that was my experience.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

Thanks, Bruce!

 

[Caveman Charlie]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

In MN you are not required to have brakes on any trailer licensed to carry less then 3000 pounds.

I have no trouble stopping my 3480 pound boat trailer combination with my 95 F150 4X4. No brakes on the trailer. I just can't imagine how boat trailer brakes would last very long.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Electric or hydraulic brakes

Given the fact that you are operating in fresh water, and the length of the boating season in MN, I would think your longevity wouldn't be too bad there. Really, asisde from the question of whether you (or anyone else) should or shouldn't have brakes, I would simply say that you will definately notice the difference in towing a trailer that has them.

I've done a lot of towing using utility and flatbed trailers, both standard hitch and gooseneck. The tow vehicles that I used most were a diesel powered F250 and an F550. A very light load behind the F550 wouldn't be all that noticeable on occassions when the brakes didn't want to work but, even moderate loads on the F250, would fight the pickup somewhat without them. That said, keeping the speed a bit below normal and braking early usually kept things at a reasonable level.

What I always thought about, however, was the "uh-oh" situations and that's why I wanted brakes on any trailer that I pulled. If you drive with one on the back of your vehicle enough, you just can't help but have an emergency stop here and there and, when you do, you will definately appreciate the trailer brakes. If they are properly adjusted, you will stop faster and there will be much less tendancy to jackknife or otherwise lose control.

My current boat/trailer combination is probably right around 2,500 pounds. I don't have brakes on it but wish I did. The good news is that my usual launch point is about a mile from my house. Even with that, my next trailer (2008 tax time?) will have them if I can figure out a way to do it without breaking the bank!