Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

[canadman]

I'm about to purchase an '87 Celebrity 21' cuddy. The boat appears to be in excellent condition with a solid 5.0 litre engine. That said, I'm not posting about Celebrities in particular but I am trying to get an objective sense of how the different used makes stack up.

I know the JDPower.com site lists a comparison for new boats but itdoesn't help when trying to determine comparisons for older boats and makes no longer in production like Celebrity. I use to have a Wellcraft for example but how did it stack up to other makes?

First off I can't find ANY history on Celebrity and would love to know more about them. Secondly, how do the boats themselves compare to other makes. For example in order of quality and class how would the various makes stack up? Would Bayliner be at the bottom? Would Celebrity be above them? Where would Four Winns be or Wellcraft or Larson, Reinnell etc...

Could anyone on here put the following in order for quality?

Bayliner
Celebrity
Fiberform
Four Winns
Larson
Reinnell
Sea Ray
Seaswirl
Wellcraft

Also any info specific to the quality of Celebrity Boats or their history (are they related to Crownline at all) would really be appreciated too.

Thanks

 

[Dakota47]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

celiberty boats are great.. have it checked out good..

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

that's like asking which is better creamy or chunky peanut butter. opinions are all different.

 

[Chip73]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

that's like asking which is better creamy or chunky peanut butter. opinions are all different.

No comparison, chunky all the way.

 

[canadman]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

tashasdaddy I would respectfully disagree... certain makes ARE bettter than others, no different to automobiles. you can't say a Hyundai is of the same quality as a Cadillac or that a Radio Shack stereo is of the same quality as a Harmon Kardon.

There seems to be a general concensus that Bayliners are a 'low end' make in general. I would say there is some concensus that Chapparal is a 'high end' make.

I'm not asking which ones people 'like' more, that's a matter of opinion, I'm asking about general level of quality and manufacture.

For example, right now I can compare NEW boats at JDPower, they clearly rate all the makes comparatively. There's nothing to go by however for used boats, especially where certain makes no longer even exist so I was wondering if anyone out there had a sense of how these models stack up.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

IMO, from my experience over the yrs, quality wise in order of only the boats listed here:

Best
Sea Ray
Four Winns

Very Good
Wellcraft
Celebrity
Seaswirl
Reinnell

Middle of the road
Larson
Fiberform
Bayliner

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

in a used boat, it does not matter who built it. what matters is who owned it, and the maintenance and care it received.

 

[Coors]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

in a used boat, it does not matter who built it. what matters is who owned it, and the maintenance and care it received.

As usual; TD is correct.
The upkeep is the deciding factor. (know how to find rot?)

 

[flowjet_man]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

It's tought to compare some of those, as they specialize in different areas.

 

[marine4003]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

in a used boat, it does not matter who built it. what matters is who owned it, and the maintenance and care it received.

WHAT???? No,No,No..OMG That is sooooo wrong,I absolutely agree on the maintainance part but the quality of a boat has alot to do with it's life span,go down to Gulf Coast Florida and look at the boat graveyards,compare two boats ..one a bayliner..the other a Wellcraft.Same Year,same motor,know what you'll find? on the 'liner,complete gelcoat failure,crazing around the cleats...water penetration in stringers and subdeck ECT..... this is due to the quality of materials used in the production of the boat,if it were a given that all boats are equal,and will last the same given the same care and maintainanse....then why would there be such a monetary difference between a Cobalt or Miraha compared to bayliner or Larson? I just bought a 1992 Celebrity 22 BR for my family to use...we cruise the ICW between Myrtle Beach & Wilmington...alot of choppy water..this boat is as heavy & stable as my 32' Scarab w/ 2 -750HP Merc's..My Foreman has a 2008 Bayliner Discovery 210..his boat weighs 2992#, My Celebrity weighs close to 5K ,and when his is in rough chop it feels like the hull's gonna implode.So in 5 years who's boat is going to look better..given the same care and attention? mine. Cause its a better built boat!

 

[donnymac]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

WHAT???? No,No,No..OMG That is sooooo wrong,I absolutely agree on the maintainance part but the quality of a boat has alot to do with it's life span,go down to Gulf Coast Florida and look at the boat graveyards,compare two boats ..one a bayliner..the other a Wellcraft.Same Year,same motor,know what you'll find? on the 'liner,complete gelcoat failure,crazing around the cleats...water penetration in stringers and subdeck ECT..... this is due to the quality of materials used in the production of the boat,if it were a given that all boats are equal,and will last the same given the same care and maintainanse....then why would there be such a monetary difference between a Cobalt or Miraha compared to bayliner or Larson? I just bought a 1992 Celebrity 22 BR for my family to use...we cruise the ICW between Myrtle Beach & Wilmington...alot of choppy water..this boat is as heavy & stable as my 32' Scarab w/ 2 -750HP Merc's..My Foreman has a 2008 Bayliner Discovery 210..his boat weighs 2992#, My Celebrity weighs close to 5K ,and when his is in rough chop it feels like the hull's gonna implode.So in 5 years who's boat is going to look better..given the same care and attention? mine. Cause its a better built boat!

Couldn't agree more. You can't polish a ----. But ---- are less expensive, just be careful.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

IMO, from my experience over the yrs, quality wise in order of only the boats listed here:

Best
Sea Ray
Four Winns

Very Good
Wellcraft
Celebrity
Seaswirl
Reinnell

Middle of the road
Larson
Fiberform
Bayliner

Ayuh,.......

I'd call that Close,.....
But,... In My person Opinion,.....
Best
Wellcraft
Four Winns

Very Good
Sea Ray
Celebrity
Seaswirl
Reinnell

Middle of the road
Larson
Fiberform

Bottom of the Barrel
Bilgeliner
Scumbird

 

[JCF350]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

For example, right now I can compare NEW boats at JDPower, they clearly rate all the makes comparatively.

Seen plenty of JDPower upper level rated items turn to junk in a few short years.

A maintained Bayslimer (there are a couple) would be a better buy than a Snea Ray that wasn't(more than a few).

 

[JCF350]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

tashasdaddy I would respectfully disagree... certain makes ARE bettter than others, no different to automobiles. you can't say a Hyundai is of the same quality as a Cadillac

This is funny!!! Hyudai's Quality of construction (newer ones) far outstrips Caddy's. Why do you think they've had such a big turn around.

Caddy's only have more Glitz.

 

[JCF350]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

Could anyone on here put the following in order for quality?

Bayliner
Celebrity
Fiberform
Four Winns
Larson
Reinnell
Sea Ray
Seaswirl
Wellcraft

Thanks

But since you ask and I've been boating for near 40 years, and seen them all at various conditions and levels care.
Average ratings for all the above.

Heck, I've seen a "few" Stamas I wouldn't touch with 20' pole.

 

[marine4003]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

When you compare boats..there are so many factors aside from engine & outdrive brand,for the most part Merc rules then OMC/Volvo ect....it how the boat is manufactured thats important,no matter who makes it,the system used is molded hull reinforced w/glass or divinacell layup. here is where you separate the wheat from the chafe, after the mold has been separated it gets reinforced w/glass..be it chopped, shot from a "gun" or hand layed, regardless,the thickness of the glass..the stringer size...how the hull is designed to move thru the water..these are vastly different from manufacturer to manufacturer, then you have the controls,wiring,fittings,seating,gauges,rubrail,winshield,safty features and boat finish.As there are hundreds of suppliers for all these above mentioned products,there are good and bad products,the latter being cheaper.looking at how the seat cushions for a Fountain or Wellcraft are made...then look at Sunbird or Bayliner,this sums it all right up,Yea there more expensive..but they LAST.After the recent repower on my Scarab,my old engines had 1100 hrs of blue water Full-Tilt-Boogie running on them, know what ? None of the stringers showed any sign of the abuse they had been subject too,nor the gelcoat,no crazing or cracks, the winshield is still firmly secured,none of the hatches are loose.in fact she's still as solid as when purchased new,and she's overpowered by 300HP. Thats what i mean by the money spent at manufacture is what determines a great boat.

 

[ck85abc3]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

Of course a bayliner in great shape is better than a four winns in horable shape. However, I think what the OP is concerned about how will the boats last after he buys them. Assuming every boat he looks at is in equal condition. Answering that question with that assumption is very useful.

What if he is looking at two boats. i) 21' cuddy bayliner; and ii) 21' cuddy four winns. After proper inspection, both boats have equal levels of structureal intergerity. Which one should he pay more for? From the sounds of it, some people think these two boats should be valued equally.

 

[JCF350]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

after the mold has been separated it gets reinforced w/glass..be it chopped, shot from a "gun" or hand layed, Thats what i mean by the money spent at manufacture is what determines a great boat.

This is where the separation starts when making a top line boat vs the "average" ones we are talking about.

At the Stamas plant when the hull leaves the mold it is fully reinforced and fully cured. Stringer systems, transoms and other items are also in place during the curing process.

 

[tommays]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

I have seen my share of boats and still own a middle of the road 1995 Maxum and a 1981 J24 sailboat built buy a Lloyds approved yard in Road Island

I have not seen anything hold up as well as the Jboat as my current one is 27 years old and has still not needed much more than some caulking and wear and tear parts


Now i new full well the Maxum would NOT take being left out in the rain(at a fraction of the cost of the J) the way the Jboat would and treated it that way and have no issues with the way it has held up


And right after you watch that special on National Geographic TV and see that boat with the great quality repuation get built out of 99% chop gun you shake you head and then shake the marketing departments hand for doing such a good job a building and illusion of quality

 

[canadman]

Re: Make Comparison (Bayliner, Celebrity, Four Winns, etc...)

OMG, I'm glad I didn't ask what the time was...I'd have a dozen posts telling me how to build a clock.

Obviously, as an earlier poster pointed out, I realize that condition is important. Naturally an immaculate Bayliner will always appeal to me before a trashed Four Winns... That's obvious and I don't thihnk warranted a string of explanations.

I think it's also obvious that I'm talking about all things being equal. So, clearly I can't leave anything to interpretation here so let me be LITERAL in my question:

If I was to hypothetically go to an imaginary boat seller's home where he had a dozen 1992 boats in his driveway each one exactly the same as the next in terms of size and model (ie: 20' bowrider) with each in exactly the same condition (and assume that condition is very good, no soft spots, no mildew, no leaks, no tears in upholstery, nothing missing, etc..., with exactly the same motors, with exactly the same amount of hours, each on exactly the same trailers but each boat was a different make and each boat was for sale for an imaginary price of $4,000 (please don't start posting that $4,000 is too much or too little for a 1992, that's not the point) which order would the boats fall in in terms of the best to worst or worst to best deal?

Would the Bayliner be the worst deal and the Four Winns be the best deal? That's all I'm asking.

The Celebrity I was looking at fell through, nonetheless naturally in looking for boats I am going to take everything into consideration but from time to time I come across two boats that are virtually the same condition, with much the same powerplant and virtually the same size & model but two different makes and I struggle deciding is the 21' Celebrity with the 5.0 litre a better boat than the 21' Seaswirl with the 5.0 litre and if so by how much?

To take the point further, let's say I come across that 21' Celebrity (say a 1990) and it is in very good shape as I described above. The engine tests out well and is a 5.0 litre with 200 - 300 hours and it's on a tandem trailer and the seller is asking $6,500. Then I come across a 21' Wellcraft in the same condition with the same specs for $7,000. Is the Wellcraft the better boat or the Celebrity, all things being equal.

Naturally if the Wellcraft rates slightly better than a Celebrity generally as a make then that makes the deal relatively even. If the Celebrity is a better made boat then I would say, with everything else equal, the Celebrity must be a great by in comparison. If however the Wellcraft is leaps and bounds better than the Celebrity, while the seller might be asking $500 more than the $6500 Celebrity, if as a make the Wellcraft is twice as good a boat (as might be the case if this were a Bayliner vs a Four Winns) The Wellcraft is a great deal because it's probably worth $2k - $3k more.

I know this is longwinded but it seems I have to be very detailed and clear on here so hopefully that better clarifies the question.