Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

North Beach

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2,022
Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Bob,
Guess I mis-spoke about the bottom. Seams and rivits it will be.
 

alumi numb

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Nov 12, 2008
Messages
299
Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

all i can say is this is what i did.
mine is a 1970 islander 22 and the back panerl needed replaced but that's all.
however i replaced the entire floor.
removing the old floor i could see some voids in the wood so my guess is they used exterior grade and it had no coating at all.
i used the same thickness "1/2' ' but glued in stiffening ribs "titebond 3".
then i gave the panels several coats of white enamel paint.
my thinking being if the original floor lasted that long i should be fine.
will say this, i used pop rivets but next time pop nuts then a can take the floor up any time i want.
someone here used diamond plate and i think that's a great idea but expensive.
just an add on, stuffed pool noodlees every place i could for added floatation.
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
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Nov 13, 2008
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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Check with the manufacturer for best application of their lumber products. It is the only way to be 100% correct about your choices.

We all have our own personal knowledge, experiences and succesful applications to talk about and that can get confusing at times.
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
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Aug 21, 2007
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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Hey where'd the great post that I got emailed?

sschefer where'd it go did you cut it all out?
 

sschefer

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Yeah, after I posted and read it I realized that nobody was going to read all that and get the point I was trying make. It would probably just generate more arguments and I didn't want the thread to get hijacked. The post I left behind gives the best advice and it can't be argued as incorrect.
 

North Beach

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Hey if you guys check out my build thread, you'll realize I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing here. With that in mind, I welcome all opinions. I understand each one of you probably has a different way of dealing with any given situation and I'm just taking it all in and trying to make a halfway informed decision.

Thanks for all the info.

Now if I can just figure out what to coat the plywood with and what method would be the easiest without becoming a fiberglass expert, I can go about ordering what I need and move on to getting ready for hull and topside paint:D:D
 

fishrdan

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

If you haven't done so yet, search the old threads for similar projects or look in the completed boat forum.

Personally, I think epoxy would be the best. What every you do, don't use poly resin without fiberglass.
 

sschefer

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Now if I can just figure out what to coat the plywood with and what method would be the easiest without becoming a fiberglass expert, I can go about ordering what I need and move on to getting ready for hull and topside paint:D:D

The reality is that no paint or glass method is entirely waterproof. Hydraulic pressure will cause osmosis and the damage can begin as soon as after 72 hours of continous contact with water. Rubber backed carpet will also osmos and does not create a perfect seal nor does linoleum. In fact, they often create a water trap that enhances the hydraulic effect.
The advantage to glassing it is that the damage first occurs to the glass. Only after it has blistered sufficently will the wood become affected.

GluVit was mentioned and is what I use on Transoms because it soaks in very deeply. The cost is nuts though and a quart sized can only covers 25 sqft. A single sheet of ply is 32 sqft on one side so you will have spent a ton of money by the time your done.

I have used a good (Zinser) exterior primer and a high quality (Behr)exterior house paint and it seems to last just fine.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
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Apr 6, 2005
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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

sschefer

I just have a question about your statement, not argument, just want it explained.

"Only after the floor blisters sufficiently" I don't think I've ever seen a floor blister in a way that would allow water to penetrate it and it's rare to see a floor blister in the first place. What was this based on? It's true that before any water gets to the wood it needs to get passed the F/G laminate and there are two common ways it get through. The first is a very poor laminate, normally just chop applied unevenly and very resin rich, this forms a week barrier that cracks easily and allows water through. The second points of failure are any holes made in the floor, screws, hatches, seams, etc that aren't sealed correctly.


Gluvit is just epoxy, nothing more, epoxy needs glass to form a long term tough protective layer or it will eventually fail over wood.


The floor in an aluminum boat is fairly easy to replace and can be made even easier if you want, so there's a couple ways to approach it. One way is to do everything possible to prevent rot, which means no wood, my floor is Honeycomb, so rot isn't an issue. There are other products that will work well also, aluminum with truck bed liner works great, without the bed liner aluminum can be very slippery and reflective, so alone it's not the best. You can find other products also.

The other way to do it is use an "OK" grade of plywood, paint it well and then just plan on replacing it when it gets bad, this might be 5 years or 15, you just never know. To make it easy to replace, don't anchor it with as many screws and don't run it under difficult to remove items, you want to be able to pull it out and replace it in couple of hours and for very little money.

Any method in between these works also, some just last longer than others.

Anything that's used over a floor made with wood that can trap water may speed it's demise, this means vinyl, carpet, floor mats, etc.
 

sschefer

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

ondarvr - The process is caused by osmosis which is enhanced by hydraulics. You see, water is an uncompressable liquid and when you trap it between a carpet or linoleum and then stand on it you create some pretty intense hydraulic pressure. If your boat never dries out and is always wet the water will eventually, through osmosis, be forced into the resin and blisters will form. It doesn't happen all that often because rarely do people not let there boats dry out. Leave a boat out all winter, in the rain, uncovered and you'll soon find out what I'm talking about.

However, the point that I'm making is that glass or resin coating your deck isn't needed if you take care of your boat like most of us do. If you're a full time commercial fisherman, then glass or resin coat it, if not, paint it and be done.

You are correct that GluVit is an epoxy but it is a penetrating epoxy that will be absorbed into the open cellulose pockets of plywood and enhance the strength of the wood while remaining flexible. This greatly enhances the ability of the wood to sustain impacts and is why I use it on transom boards. Maintenance crews on historical ships thin it down and use it as a wood filler where termites have done their dirty deeds.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

sschefer

No offence, but it sounds like an internet "Fact", meaning some bits of truth mixed with a little misunderstanding and conjecture. Blisters can form under carpets, seat cushions, canvas where it lays up against the gel coat, under shrink wrap or any place water is kept in contact for long periods of time. The problem with these areas is not getting walked on, its that water vapor can permeate a substance much easier than water as a liquid can, these areas of gel coat are in a very humid environment and it gets worse as the temperature fluctuates. Typically these are gel coat blisters that form, not the type normally found on a hull within the laminate, which even in the worst cases rarely let water pass through the laminate. I have never seen water penetrate a deck laminate by way of blisters, I can't say it?s never happened, but it would be the least of my worries when it comes to rotting plywood.

I would say that fewer than 5% of boat owners store their boats in way that that will keep them dry, as in indoors, most get wet and stay that way most of the year.

I agree that painted plywood is a good option in a tinny.

I wouldn't say coating wood with epoxy is a waste, but if you're going to that expense, then at least use a layer of cloth for durability.
 

Mark42

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

I have seen sealed floors crack and water invade the plywood. No matter how well the floor is sealed, it will eventually get some leak. Using regular, non-treated plywood is guarenteeing a future failure. If pressure treated ply is used, then minor failures of the seal will not cause failure of the plywood.

In addition of pressure treated being resistant to rot, the glue used in the laminations is better than regular ply.

Not using pressure treated is foolish in my opinion.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Mark42;1931144 Using regular said:
Hey you know what?

Marine ply is not pressure treated.

Pressure treated has never been developed for use it boats and is not sold for it.

Oh and he already bought marine ply and is asking about sealing it.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Hey you know what?

Marine ply is not pressure treated.

Pressure treated has never been developed for use it boats and is not sold for it.

Oh and he already bought marine ply and is asking about sealing it.




They do make PT plywood for marine use, Greenwood Boat Panels are one type and there are others too. I buy my PT from boat builders and my 19' CC has treated plywood cores, the company advertises the lifetime warranty. A very large house boat company I supply buys plywood and treats it themselves before construction.
http://www.greenwoodproducts.com/xlpanels.htm
 

fishrdan

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

A very large house boat company I supply buys plywood and treats it themselves before construction.

Do you know what their procedure is? Pull a vacuum on a chamber full of ply and then flood with preservative like the lumber companies or something else?
 

Mark42

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Hey you know what?

Marine ply is not pressure treated.

Pressure treated has never been developed for use it boats and is not sold for it.....


Oh really?

Then what is this stuff?

http://marine-plywood.us/douglas fir.htm#BC_Pressure

http://www.pontoonstuff.com/pontoon-boat/144-marine-plywood.asp

Okoum? Marine Plywood .... .....These strips are patched, dried, and trimmed before they are layered with grains alternating at 90 degree angles and glued together. The stack is then heated and pressed for about 5 minutes to form a panel. The plywood panels may then be treated with preservatives to resist against water, bugs, and other destructive forces. Okoum? plywood must meet strict requirements to be considered marine-grade.

The above quote is taken from here:

http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/prefablab/FLASH/pdf/3.0/3.54-Okoume.pdf
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Do you know what their procedure is? Pull a vacuum on a chamber full of ply and then flood with preservative like the lumber companies or something else?


Not really, but I won't go into the details of how a customer does something that isn't a common practice.
 

North Beach

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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Mark42,
Thanks for the Homestead link bud! Now I know what I'm gonna use for the side panels and dash:D
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
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Messages
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Re: Seriously! Marine or Pressure Treated???

Hey look at that some people do make some.

How come that's not what you suggested?

I still don't get why we're arguing over a moot point that has nothing to do with this guys boat.
 
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