Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Follybob

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I am having problems starting my 1978 Johnson 200 HP. Hope this post is not too detailed but, man, I have tried every trick I know.

The issue : Motor is very hard to start. After about 20 seconds it will fire off once but won't ever stay running more than maybe one revolution regardless of throttle input. This continues for several minutes - crank crank fire, crank crank fire but no follow through.

If its in the yard I can see exhaust smoke when it's not audibly firing; it gradually begins to fire more and then I will let off the keyswitch. Eventually it will sputter to life. It takes a minute before it runs properly. It acts fuel starved to me but then smokes a lot for the first few minutes.

If a fuel/gas mixture is sprayed in the carb throats before or during starting it fires off quickly but still doesn't fire right up. It barely runs for about a minute and then runs normally.

After initial start it will run fine and start fine all day long. Runs very well except at start up which can take 5 minutes. I've used it this way for two years.

Starting procedure : Prime motor with bulb. Advance throttle ever so slightly. Any more throttle and the motor will not start at all. Apply electric choke. Turn key and hold choke till it fires. Repeat, repeat.

Background : I bought the motor in this condition two years ago with the intention of fixing it easily. Right.

Since purchase I have done the following : Rebuild carbs, rebuild both fuel pumps, replace external spin on fuel filter, replace both power packs due to one failure (stator voltage tested lower on one side than the other but in the acceptable range according to my mechanic friend who helped with test), replace spark plugs, check timing at idle, adjusted the two choke butterflies (they are fully closed when actuated), seafoam decarbonized.

Any thoughts, ideas, theories or advice would be welcomed. I don't want to be embarrassed at the landing this year! Thanks for listening.

Rob
 

tashasdaddy

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51,019
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Have you check compression on all cylinders. have you check spark with a spark tester, spark should be blue, and jump atleast 1/2 inch. also a full charged battery is required, the motor has to turn 300+- rpms to start.

try holding choke the first try, then release, then hold it on the third try, constant holding will flood the motor. once it fires, you have to tap the button to keep it running, until it settles.

i personally think you either have a compression problem (can make hard to start, or carb problem).

did you do all of this when you did your carbs? http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=244013
 

Follybob

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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

I've been through the carbs twice as described in the thread. Good thread by the way.

If it were a carb problem what would you guess it could be? I think it's strange that it runs perfectly other than startup.

If the choke is released as soon as it fires the result is the same - motor fires once and dies. Without holding it it will not start. Will try the method described.

Battery is fully charged and turning at least 300 RPM.

Checked spark when I replaced the power packs and it was good. I will recheck it. Do you think moving to non surface gap plugs would have any benefit?

I will also recheck compression as soon as I can find my tester but it was OK at time of purchase.

Thanks for the help - much appreciated. I will keep you posted.

Rob
 

tashasdaddy

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Messages
51,019
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

you should be running,
200 1976 - 1983 Champion UL77V or QL16V Surface Gap if not get the right ones.

fast idle lever should be all the way up, this allow more fuel to start. then when started lower it.
 

ezeke

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Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Your problem may be that the chokes are not closing 100% which is required. Take the cover off so that you can watch the choke plates close and stay closed as someone cranks the engine. They need to be 100% fully closed and synchronized until you release them.

If the plates are synchronized, you can adjust them as a set by simply moving the choke solenoid in small increments.
 

Follybob

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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Thanks again guys. I am running UL77V plugs.

My boat has a binnacle control throttle and thus no fast idle lever.

I have synchronized the choke plates and they are closing firmly at the same time. I'm with you on this idea, though. Re there any places on the carb bodies or intake path that could leak air at start up and cause insufficient fuel to be released under choke?

Additionally, if running and the choke is applied it doesn't seem to enrich the mixture enough to bog the engine. I though that was strange but I've always had primer systems on my engines so maybe not.

Since the boat refuses to start with the throttle more than slightly advanced I am wondering if the pick up timing could be off. I set it according to the Seloc specs.

I found my compression tester and it looks like I will be buying a new spark gap tester tomorrow since it has apparently left town in search of a more favorable job market. If it's not freezing here in Charleston tomorrow I will update with results.

Side note - does anyone know what the correct WOT timing should be? Manual says 28 degrees but I know there have been some changes over the years.

Thanks,
Rob
 

ezeke

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Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Regardless of what control you have, the timing must advance for the cold start. The warm-up lever does that on the side mount control, leaving the throttles only slightly open when the timing is nearly fully advanced.

I think that you need to examine the setup to find a way to advance the timing as part of your cold start procedure.

If the motor is running well once warmed up, I would highly recommend that you not disturb the timing.
 

Eshaw150

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Nov 30, 2008
Messages
295
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

check the tourque on the flywheel mine had the same problem this eased it some if its not tourqued also check the key
 

Follybob

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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Thanks again for the help. I am going to do some diagnostics and follow up on these suggestions tomorrow unless it's really cold. Will report back.

Rob
 

Boatdood

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Aug 22, 2008
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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Unless I'm having a real brain failure here you do not have a choke butterfly on your top carburetor. I never could figure out what the engineers were thinking when they came up with this idea but what it does is to allow two of the cylinders to be too lean to fire on a cold start. As soon as the rotation comes around to number one or two the fuel air mix is too lean and the engine quits. I've fixed a few of them by installing a bottom carb in the top carb position, that way all the cylinders have the benefit of a choke butterfly. Check your engine to see if you have a butterfly in the top carb. If not, that's pretty much the reason why it's hard to start.
 

Follybob

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Jan 16, 2009
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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Boatdood - You're totally correct. I have been looking at that non choked carb for some time now and contemplating why.

I saw in the manual that it came that way and moved on. I think actually choking the whole engine would be the way to go.

I will try to locate a spare shaft and butterfly. The linkage already actuates the shaft on the top carb there is just no butterfly.

Will report results of all experiments and tests as they unfold.

Thanks,
Rob
 

Benny1963

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Sep 17, 2006
Messages
1,476
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

ive been fighting same prob on 1983 v6 crossflow,
touchy to start but once fully fireing runs perfect a lot of tank time went into the tuneing of my motor by me and old mech that helps me at my shop.
i have new starter turning over very quick ,they dont like to start witout cranking voltage ,my motor runs better with ql77jc4s at 30 than surface gap
ended up weak stator and coils just couldnt get enough voltage with older stator,and really bad coils even though they were fireing ,
mine uses primer selinoid new. and was doing the exact thing yours is
trouble shoot your elecs using cdis chart and your manual with dva youll find it .
once running my motor ran like scallded dog ,but only on cold start did i have probs ,
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 19, 2003
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12,532
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

The switch to having one set of V6 carbs with no choke actually dates to OMC Service Bulletin # 1422 June, 1976. Due to hard starting problems, the bulletin recommends disabling the bottom carburetor's choke so that only the top two choke plates would close.

Later V6 models came without the choke plates on one set of carburetors until the primer solenoid systems were used in 1980.

Since the V6 Motors are well known to start and run on four cylinders, it is doubtful that the lack of the third choke plate is the primary source of your problem.
 

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Follybob

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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Point taken on the third carb choke. Rained all day today so no boat work. I will hit the diagnostics tomorrow.

Rob
 

Follybob

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Jan 16, 2009
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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

One question about the WOT timing procedure (plugs out). I do not have a multiple cylinder spark tester anymore. What would be the easiest way to get around this? Thanks again.

Rob
 

Dhadley

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Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Try switching to (Q)L77JC4 plugs. Also keep in mind you can convert to a primer system. Far better than the choke system.
 

cdoliver

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Mar 18, 2008
Messages
211
Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

Also make sure all of the butterflies in the CARBS are sinc'd perfectly. Especially when closed.
 

Follybob

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Jan 16, 2009
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Re: Strange Starting Problem Crossflow V6

OK. Worked on the boat a bit today and the compression is even across all 6 cylinders (within 10%). Spark is good on all 6.

Someone has worked on this motor before and I think the powerhead may be different than the leg.

Numbers on the welch plug are:
150949C
J0003002

Numbers on serial plate are:
E200TRLCSM
J0001174

E is for Evinrude, right? Can anyone verify HP and year for powerhead?

I pulled the carbs to verify jet sizes since this motor appears to have been pieced together. Assumptions may have done that thing they tend to do, in this case, to me.

Carb specs are as follows:
Casting numbers 324955
Jet Sizes are 51C for HSJ and 29 29 for LSJ

There is a 1 stamped in the body in the front of the carb body next to the casting or part number that seems to indicate carb throat diameter as 1". I need some help on this, please.

1) Are these the correct carbs for this motor?
2) Are these the correct jets for these carbs?
3) Is there supposed to be a fuel pullover orifice in them?

Thanks in advance,

Rob
 
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