67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

[bktheking]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Sounds like a bad ground, these things ground through the case don't they? Or it could be a bad cable going from the starter to the solenoid. Have you tried the direct approach from a battery? Remove the wire going from the starter to the solenoid. Try it 2 ways, direct ground to the engine then direct ground to the starter case, if it gives you different results the ground to the starter is bad.

 

[bktheking]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Bench testing a starter with just a set of jumper cables is not a test.

Since when is it not a test??? It will tell you if the starter works correctly or not, it's the rest of the wiring that needs to figured out at this point.

The starter works, that we know.

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Those old starters require periodic maintainence, the nose takes a few drops of 90w lube if the shaft gets gummy and dirty the gear will no longer slide up and mesh, is everything clean and lubed?

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

A true test will tell you how much torque, draw, and RPM the starter has. Jumper cable's just tell you it will run. That does'nt mean it will crank the engine over.

 

[Lion hunter]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Are you bench testing the starter with the same battery as on the motor? Are you bench testing the starter in the same position as it's mounted on the motor? Don't know if possible but if the bushings are bad when the starter is in the vertical position it could create more drag. Have you had the battery load tested? The voltage regulator wont be in play here, the starter is getting electricity direct from battery. Did you clean the mounting surface of the starter and the block as well as the bolts?

There are some possibilties here some I have never experienced but could in theory happen I guess.

1. Wiring harness is corroded and building up resistance. Check wires all the way from key switch to solenoid.

2. How long are you cranking? I have never seen it but I suppose if you cranked long enough the contacts in the solenoid could get hot enough to build resistance and drop voltage. I would think if this happened you'd weld the points and the solenoid wouldn't work.

3. Mis wired. Have you verified the wiring diagram?

We may be down to just throwing ideas out now

 

[bktheking]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

How would one test torque and rpm of a starter motor? I'd like to know for future troubleshooting purposes of my own equipment.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Okey Dokey here we go. i appreciate everyones brainstorming on this! i took starter to mayers marina out in rochester ny. He ran the test on the starter motor and said everything was good to go. keep in mind this isnt the same place who rebuilt it. i am now debating to replace the positive and negative lines as well as the starter solenoid and try to start fresh. Here is another weekend an nowhere near the water will i be However, Could the starter be misaligned once being put into the vertical position????? I feel like its something simple and I/WE possibly overlooked something! And yes the bench test was done using the same battery as used on the boat. The voltage tester read only 8 volts using the key going into the start position then dropped. lower voltage than required correct???? So im thinking to replace all as mentioned above and see???? If you think its crazy please say so! Your continued help and ideas have my respect and many thanks!

 

[Lion hunter]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

BK,
I think R. JOhnson was saying that a load test with the starter attached is necessary to get the whole story.

Mason,
Did you have the battery load tested? It may spin the starter on the bench. There is no load there. Add the motor and compression and you've created a load that the battery may not handle. Charge the battery and take to any auto store the test is free. You can also do a simple load test by putting your multi meter on the battery and trying to start with the starter installed. If it drops to 8 volts I'd bet the battery is not any good.

Did you verify the wiring from the diagram?

Replacing Pos and Neg cables. They usually go bad from the ends. Cut both ends back to good clean wire if there is room. Get the proper battery lugs (probably 4 guage) from Napa and solder them on. I have a cheap crimping anvil I got from Napa. I crimp then solder.

Also check the other smaller gauge wires for corrosion and cracking. Some of these cannot be cobble together. If you have the red/white wire that goes to the coil it is a resistor wire. Some models have the resitor from the key to the motor plug, some have it the entire way. The only way I figured out what I had was to as someone else on here.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Those old starters require periodic maintainence, the nose takes a few drops of 90w lube if the shaft gets gummy and dirty the gear will no longer slide up and mesh, is everything clean and lubed?

are you referring to the gear portion? that part unsure of but can check that tomorrow afternoon. as for the starter motor that was done on the rebuild.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

BK,
I think R. JOhnson was saying that a load test with the starter attached is necessary to get the whole story.

Mason,
Did you have the battery load tested? It may spin the starter on the bench. There is no load there. Add the motor and compression and you've created a load that the battery may not handle. Charge the battery and take to any auto store the test is free. You can also do a simple load test by putting your multi meter on the battery and trying to start with the starter installed. If it drops to 8 volts I'd bet the battery is not any good.

Did you verify the wiring from the diagram?

Replacing Pos and Neg cables. They usually go bad from the ends. Cut both ends back to good clean wire if there is room. Get the proper battery lugs (probably 4 guage) from Napa and solder them on. I have a cheap crimping anvil I got from Napa. I crimp then solder.

Also check the other smaller gauge wires for corrosion and cracking. Some of these cannot be cobble together. If you have the red/white wire that goes to the coil it is a resistor wire. Some models have the resitor from the key to the motor plug, some have it the entire way. The only way I figured out what I had was to as someone else on here.

SORRY to have included the entire reply, i'm using a clymers manual for the wiring diagrams. The battery was load tested at two different places advanced auto and also mayers marina up here in rochester. So your saying to just cut the ends and sweat new ones on? Should i replace the solenoid since its already out?

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Hook a voltmeter to the starter, see what it drop's to when it fall's to that spinning state. A starter will still work with some sad looking brush's, but if the bushing's are wore out, and the armature drags on the field, that will bring thing's to a stop. Did they replace the bushing's? Can you grasp the bendix, and wiggle it back, and forth?

The gear head doesn't move at all. Everything was replaced brushes springs and all new bushings. I have been going to this place for years and am pretty confident in them. when i hooked voltmeter to starter an tried to start it today it only produced 8volts till it got hot then stopped naturally going to 0 volts. after that it sounded like a clicking sound with a little bit of juice(kinda like an arching with a click to it) and nothing. i tapped on the solenoid and the starter and they started to go again and then died again to 0 volts.

 

[Lion hunter]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

a70 is talking about lubing the shaft that the gear is on. When the get dry they don't want to go up or retract properly.

I'm starting to get confused on the problem here so lets work through this one step at a time.
With all thest tests do not crank the starter more than 4-5 sec. Even then don't do that more that 4-5 time without letting the starter cool down. Even the best starters get hot when cranked continually. If it doesn;'t start within the 4-5 cycles of 4-5 seconds each there is another problem and trying to continue to start will not solve it and only burn up your starter and solenoid

What happens when everything is hooked up and you try to start? Do you here a click? Does the starter spin but not engage the flywheel? Does it engage the flywheel but quit right away?

Before I bought any more parts I repair the battery cables. These are a big culprit of alot of problems. Yes I was talking about sweating them. It's the best method to insure proper connection

Read this post and follw the steps. Get back to us with the results

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=158071

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

The way i interpreted it is that your starter motor spins but the gear doesn't come up into the flywheel, your problem is not in the starter motor as you already found out by having it tested, the nose section is where the problem is, the starter gear is forced into the flywheel by centrifical force alone that is why it's very important for the shaft gears and bushings to be clean lubed, things get gummed up from neglect.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Understood all of your questions. When I get home from work today, I will go through the process slowly and mark down the details. I usually only crank for 4 second intervals but once I noticed the starter wasn't engaging, I'd try to crank for a lil longer to see an hear what's going on. I will post later tonight and hopefully we can find a solution! Thanks again everyone

 

[bktheking]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Sounds like cables or solenoid.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

I will see about replacing those today. If it does the trick ill post later as well a if it doesn't. Thanks again.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Sorry people have been away from computer the past day and a half. I coach youth football so please forgive. i have found out that the battery may not be up to par and that further testing needs to be done. I dont believe the marina or auto center did a load test on it just a diagnostic. I went to charge the battery yesterday and found that it was at 50% yet they said it was performing fine......... I will be putting the starter and solenoid in this evening and will hopefully have an idea to share.

 

[Mr. Mason]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

Almost done putting it all back together. I was unsucessful finding a replacement solenoid locally. Would I be able to use an off brand like a ford or gm solenoid? I would think yes but need to ask..

 

[Daviet]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

There is a difference between automotive and marine. The short difference is the amount of voltage going out of the ground post to a safty switch. Run a search, I bet some has explained at lenth before.

 

[oldrudedude]

Re: 67 Johnson 80hp last straw!

New info to feed on. I tried starting it again with the same result tried to jump it an the starter spun better but gear never raised up to engage flywheel. Then slowed an stopped and the positive line feeding it from battery was extremely hot to the touch. Polarity is correct. Any ideas??

Maybe the cable from the battery is bad. If you jumped the starter by removing the cable from the solenoid terminal and jumped it directly to the starter and the cable got quickly hot, the cable could be creating resistance and dropping the voltage.