Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Bigprairie1

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I've seen some references in the forum to the 'Loopers' put out by Johnson and I have a few questions that maybe you guys could help me out with?
What was unique about these motors vs. a standard Johnson?
What years were they available? (did they become a new standard? and thus part of all 80's motors or?)
What hp's were they availabe in?
What were Evinrudes equivalent if they had one? (or them?)
I remember seeing these from time to time on the lakes when I was growing up and I didn't think much about it one way or another beyond it being another product marketing name.
Thanks;):)
BP:cool:
 

trendsetter240

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

A 'Looper' is a motor with Loop Charged Induction or Loop Scavenged Induction. The other popular design was crossflow.

Here is an excellent description of the two taken from wikipedia.

Crossflow-scavenged
In a crossflow engine the transfer ports and exhaust ports are on opposite sides of the cylinder and a deflector on the top of the piston directs the fresh intake charge into the upper part of the cylinder pushing the residual exhaust gas down the other side of the deflector and out of the exhaust port. The deflector increases piston's weight and its exposed surface area, and also makes it difficult to achieve an efficient combustion chamber shape. This design has been largely superseded by loop scavenging method (below), although for smaller or slower engines the crossflow-scavenged design can be an acceptable approach.

Loop-scavenged
This method of scavenging uses carefully shaped and positioned transfer ports to direct the flow of fresh mixture toward the combustion chamber as it enters the cylinder. The fuel air mixture strikes the cylinder head then follows the curvature of the combustion chamber then is deflected downward. This not only prevents the fuel/air mixture travelling directly out the exhaust port but creates a swirling turbulence which improves combustion efficiency, power and economy. Usually a piston deflector is not required, so this approach has a distinct advantage over the cross flow scheme (above). Often referred to as "Schnuerle" (or "Schn?rl") loop scavenging after the German inventor of an early form in the mid 1920s, it became widely adopted in that country during the 1930s and spread further afield after World War II. Loop scavenging is the most common type of fuel/air mixture transfer used on modern two stroke engines. Suzuki was one of the first manufacturers outside of Europe to adopt loop scavenged two stroke engines. This operational feature was used in conjunction with the expansion chamber exhaust developed by German motorcycle manufacturer, MZ and Walter Kaaden. Loop scavenging, disc valves and expansion chambers worked in a highly coordinated way that saw a significant increase in the power output of two-stroke engines, particularly from the Japanese manufacturers Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki. Suzuki and Yamaha enjoyed success in grand Prix motorcycle racing in the 1960s due in no small way to the increased power afforded by loop scavenging. An additional benefit of loop scavenging was that the piston could be made nearly flat or slightly dome shaped. This enabled the piston to be appreciably lighter and stronger and consequently tolerated higher engine speeds. The "flat top" piston also has better thermal properties and is less prone to uneven heating, expansion, piston seizures, dimensional changes and compression losses.
 

Chris1956

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

In additon to the excellent description provided. Loop charged motors differ from Cross-flow motors because they have multiple transfer ports (vice one transfer port) that are tuned to scavange (push the exhaust out). The ultimate achievement in Loop Charged motors was the 7 port loop charged motors used in motocycles in the early 70s. These had four transfer ports, one exhaust port, a standard intake port with a reed valve and the seventh port was the elongated part of the intake port, which allowed fuel+air to flow directly into the combustion chamber, from the carb.
 

Bigprairie1

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Good info guys. So are pretty much all 2 strokes (at least what remains)
now 'loopers'? :confused:
I recall guys mentioned they (loopers) put out more power than advertised?? It seems that a new 70hp would then be quite a bit smaller than an older one...which I don't particularly get the impression of.
OR.....maybe just buying pretty much anything from the mid-late 80's would give the same performance...at least in the low budget motor category?:confused:
Did Evinrude have the same thing? and Evinrude 'Looper'?
Did they use this technology up on their higher horse motors? (ie: 90/100/115/etc?)
Again...many thanks.
BP;):)
 

trendsetter240

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

I can answer a few of your questions:

So are pretty much all 2 strokes (at least what remains)
now 'loopers'?

All carburated 2-strokes larger than about 6hp use loop charged induction. I Know this for Yamaha and Evinrude...others may have slightly different models.

The Yamaha 6hp kickers are crossflow, 8hp to 90hp are loop-charged and 115 and above are direct injection.

Evinrudes produced these days are all direct injection.

Did Evinrude have the same thing? and Evinrude 'Looper'?
Yep. They made tons of them. Whatever came out as a Johnson was generally available as an Evinrude as well.
 

kenmyfam

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Whatever the findings of this discussion, Loopers are great !!!!! Just ask my Doral !!!
 

Texasmark

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

A big "10-4 good buddy" on "Loopers are Great". Merc had a Direct Charge that was somewhat similar to OMC's loop, but it was patented and Merc had to have something to compete while it was waiting for the patent to expire that couldn't violate the patent. I had an '89 115 Merc Tower of Power that was Direct Charged.

In my opinion, the Looper is what gave 2 cycle outboards their competitive edge against 4 cycle Sterndrives and inboards. Once you got the fuel consumption numbers within reach of each other, the attributes of the OB made it the engine of choice for lots of folks.....including me.

Mark
 

Tacklewasher

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Did Evinrude have the same thing? and Evinrude 'Looper'?
Did they use this technology up on their higher horse motors? (ie: 90/100/115/etc?)
Again...many thanks.
BP;):)


No difference (until recently) between Johnson and Evinrude.

Mid 80's the V4's changed from crossflow to loopers. Not sure the exact year.
 

Chinewalker

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Mercury's first production looper was 1976 with the V6 175. OMC's first loopers were the 3-cylinder 55s that arrived in 1968, followed by the 50hp twin in 1971. The first OMC Vs were in 1985 with the 120 & 140 V4s and the 275 & 300hp V8s. The first looper outboards were racing motors from Konig (Germany) and Quincy Welding (U.S., based on a Merc chassis) in the early 1960s.

There was a lot of overlap with the OMC V4s & V6s with crossflows and loopers being sold during the same model year from the mid 1980s into the 1990s. The last OMC crossflow V4s were the venerable 88SPL and 112SPL models in 1996.
 

Chris1956

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Did you guys know that the e-TEC has designed the exhaust tuner on the V6 motors to maximize power in two bands? They have a door in the exhaust tuner (read as expansion chamber), which increases the volume of the exhaust tuner, at high speeds. When the door closed, the tuner maxmizes the low RPM power, and when the door opens(at high throttle setting) the tuner maxmizes power at high RPMs.


I for one think that is pretty cool. They also have designed the exhaust tuner to be a u-shaped expansion chamber connected to both banks of cylinders. So as the cylinders fire alternately (firing order is 1,2,3,4,5,6), each cylinder reuses the same expansion chamber. Also pretty cool, IMHO.

The only question is whether my Carbed Johnny V6 has this feature.
 

Texasmark

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Mid 80's the V4's changed from crossflow to loopers. Not sure the exact year.

I think for awhile they offered loopers and crossflows in their engine lineups. Recollecting, the tuned exhaust that supported the loop function apparently favored the timing brought on by 3 cylinders. So the first OMC was 3 as a result of that...and weight and cost and all one would imagine. As I recall OMC offered loopers in their 6 cyl engines because they could use 2 ea. 3 cyl exhaust tuners. Don't know what happened in the 50 hp as it came out early, but I think the delay in the 4 cyl was getting the "exhaust echo" perfected.

Additionally, as I recall, you could buy a looper or non-looper in that time frame. Easy too tell the difference at the dealer as the looper higher hp engines were physically much larger than their crossflow counter parts. I did hear that the cross flow had some attributes not experienced by the looper (I think smoother idle was one). But I'll tell you one thing, you can surely tell the difference between the technologies at the gas pump. BTDT

Mark

Mark
 

eli_lilly

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

A big "10-4 good buddy" on "Loopers are Great". Merc had a Direct Charge that was somewhat similar to OMC's loop, but it was patented and Merc had to have something to compete while it was waiting for the patent to expire that couldn't violate the patent. I had an '89 115 Merc Tower of Power that was Direct Charged.

The Direct Charge used an "eyebrow" on the piston to circulate the gases. Someone in the Merc forum must've posted about that 4 or 5 years ago when I had a Merc and was still reading that area.

-E
 

bkwapisz

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Mercury's first production looper was 1976 with the V6 175. OMC's first loopers were the 3-cylinder 55s that arrived in 1968, followed by the 50hp twin in 1971. The first OMC Vs were in 1985 with the 120 & 140 V4s and the 275 & 300hp V8s. The first looper outboards were racing motors from Konig (Germany) and Quincy Welding (U.S., based on a Merc chassis) in the early 1960s.

There was a lot of overlap with the OMC V4s & V6s with crossflows and loopers being sold during the same model year from the mid 1980s into the 1990s. The last OMC crossflow V4s were the venerable 88SPL and 112SPL models in 1996.


So... I have a 1990 Johnson GT100. Is this a crossflow or a Looper? I thought I was told it was a crossflow, but now I'm confused, and since it's working fine I'm not about to take it apart to count the ports....? :confused:
 

ondarvr

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

Mercury's first production looper was 1976 with the V6 175. OMC's first loopers were the 3-cylinder 55s that arrived in 1968, followed by the 50hp twin in 1971. The first OMC Vs were in 1985 with the 120 & 140 V4s and the 275 & 300hp V8s. The first looper outboards were racing motors from Konig (Germany) and Quincy Welding (U.S., based on a Merc chassis) in the early 1960s.

There was a lot of overlap with the OMC V4s & V6s with crossflows and loopers being sold during the same model year from the mid 1980s into the 1990s. The last OMC crossflow V4s were the venerable 88SPL and 112SPL models in 1996.

One slight correction, the last year for a V-4 crossflow was 1998, I have one.
 

Chinewalker

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

The GT100 was a crossflow... Easiest way to tell if you have a crossflow or looper is to look for the bypass covers on each side. A crossflow will have four of them, one for each cylinder. A looper will have none.

Ondarvr - thanks - I had done a quick look at the BRP parts lists and didn't see any CFs after 1996. What model is yours?
 

ondarvr

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

I have a '98 90HP SPL

They must have been dumping leftover parts and continued to sell motors until they were gone, I think there was a 115 spl that year too.

When I ask for parts they frequently say they didn't make a CF that year, when I give them the model # sometimes they can't even look up parts because its not listed in the book.

Parts purchased in 11 years of use, 1 rectifier (my fault) and 2 water pumps.
 

Texasmark

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

The Direct Charge used an "eyebrow" on the piston to circulate the gases. Someone in the Merc forum must've posted about that 4 or 5 years ago when I had a Merc and was still reading that area.

-E

Hi Eli, Seems to me they used the same piston (with the crown) that they used in their CF designs which have the "eyebrow" you mentioned.....looked the same to me from the spark plug hole anyway. Probably kept it to help them stay out of a lawsuit with OMC on patent infringement. Also the porting was probably different too as a result of the crown.

Mark
 

bkwapisz

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

The GT100 was a crossflow... Easiest way to tell if you have a crossflow or looper is to look for the bypass covers on each side. A crossflow will have four of them, one for each cylinder. A looper will have none.

Ondarvr - thanks - I had done a quick look at the BRP parts lists and didn't see any CFs after 1996. What model is yours?



Thank you, sir!
 

Bigprairie1

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Re: Whats a 'Looper' and a few other questions

It looks like I came to right place for info...thanks guys. I know what to keep an eye out for if I end up repowering. ;)
All Good
BP:):cool:
 
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