Tohatsu MD50 any questions

taisto

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Greetings to all!

In this forums probably know a lot of that Tohatsu engine.
I thought of asking the experience engine, if it is someone in the panel is already in use.
Mainly interested in the weight and price, and comes mainly trolling operation.
How's that 2-stroke injected operates trolling operation vs. carburetter model.
How does that three step trollingspeed regulator.
I suppose they are manufactured in Japan, I do not know, someone may be wiser.
Whether those engines were usually problems.

Taisto from finland!
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

The MD50... Good Japanese motor. "Big Brother" of the MD40. Idles down nicely. Brisk throttle response. Lower emissions than a similar 4-stroke. Virtually no smoke. The multi-speed idle is done with a push of the key switch (operates like the old electric chokes did). Trolls nicely, so no additional kicker motor needed.

The TLDI fuel system is very economical, reliable and durable, operating at only 80 psi, vs high pressure systems that run at nearly 1000 psi. Starts more reliably and idles much better than a carb model. Also has full diagnostics right in the tachometer. No oxygen sensor to fail. Weight is about the same as any 2-stroke (a lot lighter than comparable 4-strokes). Price is typically the best of any DFI engine available. 3+1 warranty. Requires very good or synthetic TCW-3 oil, just like any DFI motor. Is more tolerant of mid-grade oils than most DFI motors. Sips tiny amounts of oil, metered to use only the amount of oil required for the operating conditions.
 

taisto

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Those emissions because I want to move to a new 2-stroke technology.

How much is in that engine lubricating oil consumption, ie how often it should be added?

What could be the propeller pitch trolling speed 1.5 mph - 3.0 mph?

Thank you in advance for all.

Taisto from Finland!
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Oil consumption is variable. Typically 100:1 or less. Less at idle, more at WOT. Specific consumption depends on the actual running conditions.

Prop specs will depend on the boat and how it is loaded.
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Hi,

I am also interested in this engine.....I have run Tohatsu's in the past and loved them. I am powering a new alloy 4.5m boat and really like the sounds of the TLDI, but from my research it seems you need a quite massive battery for such a small motor. 1000CCA.....Seriously?, that would start a ten liter truck engine! I live in a sub tropical climate, and can't for the life of me see what requires that kind of amperage within this engine? Any weight advantage of the TLDI is soon gobbled up in battery weight....and then some. Do I really need a battery that large? Why? I have always run two smaller batteries to isolate the cranking battery from accessories.

I am looking at the yamaha F60tiller, Etec 50/60 tiller, and the TLDI 50 tiller (the TLDI being cheapest by a fair margin)...what are peoples thoughts? I also note that there is no ability to emergency rope start the TLDI....Is that correct? The Tohatsu tiller does not seem to have the length or the handy trim button like the yammy or etec, has anyone used this tiller? Is it OK for long runs?
I really want to go with the TLDI, but the above few issues are starting to turn me off it a bit.....I'm hoping I can be convinced otherwise.
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

TLDI motors require good voltage to the ECU when cranking. If the battery is junk/undercharged, or, more commonly, if the battery cabling has resistance losses due to poor connections/corrosion/etc., the voltage to the ECU can drop enough (during cranking) that the ECU can malfunction while the cranking is occurring. In PC analogy, the computer can "reboot" during a brownout. On a TLDI, that situation can require resetting the TPS, etc. The situation is worse in freezing conditions, when batteries -- especially cheap batteries -- are weaker.

The 1000-amp recommendation is not difficult to achieve. You do not need a huge 4D/8D battery, and you do not want a deep cycle battery for starting a TLDI. Virtually every major battery manufacturer offers a 1000-amp group-24 marine starting battery. Most decent group-24 marine starting batteries are 840-1000 MCA. If they are smaller than that, they are tinker toys, and don't belong on a boat. There is maybe one pound of weight difference between the cheap group-24 and a good 1000-amp group-24, so weight is not an issue.

If the battery and cabling are very good or new, and all connections are clean and tight, any cheap 840-amp battery will work fine. But... when a couple of years go by... when the battery is still working, yet has a lower output, and the cable connections have developed corrosion losses... that's when problems start to show up.

This situation is not unique to the TLDI. Any DFI outboard needs good voltage at the ECU during cranking. The same thing occurs in the automotive world, when a weak/underchaged/old battery (or poor cabling) can only deliver enough current to crank the starter... yet the engine will not start. This is because the starter saps so much power that the voltage at the control module is not enough for the ignition system to operate correctly.

Hand-cranking a TLDI is unnecessary, and would be difficult anyway. The ECU, fuel and oil systems are electrically operated, so you need 12v for the motor to run. The same thing is true with cars... Hand cranks were deleted three-quarters of a century ago in favor of electric starting.
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Ok.....they need decent batteries to fire.....but do they actually have to be that large? I mean if i was to put a good 600cca battery in the boat surely that little 50 would fire? That's all I ever had with my f60 yammy and it startred first time every time for years on the same battery. If the engine physically required that kind of amps than the factory battery cable must be massive!

My car certainly would not require a tps reset if the battery went flat! No one seems to be able to tell me what is drawing such amps.....ECU? Starter? injectors? inductive iginition? I'm not questioning the reliability of tohatsu here( I love them) - I have never owned DFI, and I'm simply trying to get my head around the facts, before investing my hard earned.

When I'm 60km offsure in my little boat it is nice to know that if something silly happened to the battery I could pull start the donk (reassuring when there is no phone coverage or radio). Etec require no battery, Tohatsu EFI four strokes require no battery, and my old F60 yammy would crank on as little as nine volts with the emergency rope(yes I gave it a go).

Placing an emergency rope cord on the TLDI would have been pysically impossable due to the comp belt......I wonder if TLDI's voltage alarm is deliberately touchy to avoid people getting near the low voltage/non start condition in the first place!

Will it be bullet proof reliable like evey other Toey? Will it be faster out of the hole than my Yammy four? Will it be comparable to a four for economy?

I am sure Tohatsu only put there name to this technology only when they were convinced of ultimate reliability!
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Oscar,

No, you don't need a lot of amps to start a TLDI... But, Yes, you do need at least an 840-amp-rated battery, 1000-amp preferred. It's not a how many amps are needed to spin the starter (at most, about 20 amps are needed for that). It's a matter of voltage drop while cranking. You want to maintain a solid 12v supply while cranking -- to preserve the integrity of, and get proper operation of, the ECU during cranking. The battery cables are about 6 gauge, and are intended to handle more than 50 amps with minimal voltage drop. The hefty battery is to minimize voltage drop during cranking. In the States, we can't even buy a decent group-24 marine starting battery that only has a puny 600-amp rating. Maybe a cheap garden tractor battery, but that doesn't belong on a boat. Just equip the boat with a good group-24 or group-27 starting battery, and you will have the rating you need. Run the isolated two-battery system that you mentioned you have been using, and you will minimize the possibility of accidentally draining the starting battery.

Regarding your car and a critically low battery... Yes, it can/will scramble a lot of data if the voltage drops too far... The car's TPS data, O2 sensor baseline data, and other critical things will need to be re-learned by the car's ECU. Even the non-critical memories in the clock and FM radio can be wiped out. The voltage drop will be exacerbated by cranking. Yes, it will probably restart once you get a good 12v supply, and so will the TLDI. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to operate that way all the time. The TLDI has two low-battery detection codes. One for generally low voltage, and another to indicate critically low voltage. And yes, it will still run even after those codes have been recorded.

Yes, TLDI motors are extremely reliable, and tolerant of brutal marine conditions. In general, they have comparable or better fuel economy -- with lower emissions -- than comparable 4-strokes, and they are as reliable as any, more so than many. Their torque curve begins very low in the RPM range, so they provide excellent hole-shot. Still, they are not intended to be hand cranked.

Hypothetically... If you truly needed a 3rd-world-reliable motor that would not require modern electrical technologies, the only option that comes to mind is an ancient "hot head" one-cylinder diesel. No battery, points, plugs, ECU, starter, nothing... Those motors are pre-heated with a blow torch, hand cranked to start, and will run on almost any fuel, even dirty bunker oil. They smoke like a chimney, have low hp output per displacement, get very poor fuel economy, and are very loud. If you were in a survival condition in a remote section of the Amazon, that might be an option. But for the rest of us... the TLDI is a much more practical choice, even though it needs a decent battery.
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

I'm not sure what I am worried about with regards to this. I guess I went looking for known problems with the TLDI (as you do when buying an outboard), and the only real issue I could find was the voltage/starting issues.....that coupled with the lack of an manual start ability got my hair up a bit. In reality I have never needed to use it, but it is nice to know it's there. Most mid range outboards still come with a rope fo starting if ever required(including carby tohatsu 50, that's still for sale new here in Oz)

I think you guys use different battery sizing.....N70(12inch) roughly
N50(10inch)
those are the sizes I'm farmiliar with? Also are we talking Cold Crank Amps here? We may be talking two different languages on this one.
My past outboard Yamaha F60DETX was fantastic at everything except a slug out of the whole......I'm hoping a TLDI will be every bit as good - just faster! ETEC are rediculously priced over here!

Does the tiller version of the TLDI still show the diagnostic light codes like the forward controlls? Do you know the voltage setpoints that the ECU alarms at? The aussie distributor is recommending 50 hour services...is that correct?

P.S. I don't want a Lister diesel in my tinny thanks....although, have you heard about the multi fuel TLDI outbard tohatsu and Orbital are working on? it can run on Diesel, gasoline, kero, ethanol etc......No joke!
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Oscar,

I think you've found the discrepancy -- battery nomenclature. In the States, we even have two high-amp ratings for lead-acid batteries, that being MCA (marine cranking amps), which is at a temperature of 32F or so, and then CCA (cold cranking amps) at about 0F. A US Group-27 battery is that larger footprint -- about 12", whereas the Group-24 is more like 10". A good Group-24 starting battery is adequate, and the Group-27 is almost always over 1000 amps.

Yes, the tiller TLDI does have the 3 indicators -- they are located on the tiller. Actually quite convenient for servicing, although we also want a tach to see some of the diagnostic data, so we wire one on when servicing tiller models.

I'm at home at the moment, and forgot the precise low volt trigger points. If you really need the specs, I can check at work tomorrow, or you can always email Tohatsu directly from the "contact" tab on the website.

I have heard some scuttlebutt about that multi-fuel motor, but I suspect it is a long way from production, if ever it is actually built.

Best,
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Ok, so our batteries are always rated in cold crank amps....what's the minimum requirement in cold crank amps?

As for the "multi fuel outboard", check out this link

http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/28637/Tohatsu_Outboards.aspx

It is an old thread I came across on a 4x4 and caravan forum when researching the TLDI......It is the Orbital Engineering manager clearly talking about these engines, and that they are for the military mainly. Worth a read.

At this stage I'm pretty convinced in my mind that this TLDI is gunna be a good thing......The yammy f60 is one sweet donk though!

Thanks for answering all my silly questions!
 

pvanv

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

"Ok, so our batteries are always rated in cold crank amps....what's the minimum requirement in cold crank amps?"

From http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/tldi_faqs.html:
"Because of the additional power requirements needed for a direct injection, TLDI? motors require you to use a marine battery with the following rating:
850 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA)
For users in colder climates, you should use a battery with a rating of:
1000 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA)"

So, it depends on the weather where you operate. If you are breaking ice, you will definitely prefer a 1000 cca battery. The big thing is to maintain all battery connections clean and tight.
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Japan say's they are not doing anything in regards to a TLDI multi-fuel engine...However, that does not preclude Orbital from doing something with a base TLDI engine and adapating it for military use. There's a hint there somewhere:)
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Does anyone know where I can get a service/repair manual for the Tohatsu MD50? Is there an electronic copy anywhere, Or do I need to purchase a hard copy? It would be great to have a flick through a service manual......give me a good look at the donk.

Thanks.
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Factory manuals are only available from Nissan or Tohatsu dealers in hard copy. You can order one online here if you do not have a dealer close to you.

http://internetoutboards.com/partdetail.asp?id=580

By the way, that MFE engine, you were referring to may be a project between Orbital and the UK's MoD with a third party doing the adaptation on Tohatsu 40/50's provided by Mercury.....It's a real convaluted trail and I am trying to get someone in R & D to spill a little bit more, but it really looks like Tohatsu's involvement(I'm not saying for sure it's even their base engine) is just providing the base engine rather than anything else....
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

And it is now confirmed as a Tohatsu TLDI, adapted to MFE. It's been out for five years and is sold as a "Secret Squirrel" engine.
 

Oscar.g

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

Purely in performance terms - How does a 50 Tldi perform against an old Carby 50 tohatsu? Out of the hole? Top speed? Cruise?
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

:) I doubt they are available to anyone other than the MoD. But, you can try http://www.barrus.co.uk/

I understand it's about $17,000.00 U.S. which would make it about $3000.00 more than the Evinrude MFE.
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: Tohatsu MD50 any questions

I forgot..."They" say a little more hole shot and "they" say more WOT. I say a lot more hole shot and a wee bit more WOT based on the one trial "we" did. Uses a lot less fuel though at 3/4 and below. Noise is a softer two-stroke whine that measures fairly high on a DB meter, but cockpit conversation level at 3/4 is about the same as any 4-stroke of the same size.
 
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