Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

[Johnny Be Cool]

1990 Mercruiser, 5.7 Sterndrive. A few weeks ago we had very heavy rain, which got in the engine compartment (about 15 gallons). I thought nothing of it, pumped it out, ran boat. After that the last time it ran was 1 1/2 weeks ago, but at that time it would not idle, kept stalling unless kept at a higher RPM. Ran fine when given gas, but everytime you pull to dock at idel it would die, then the starter would quit. While refueling, it would not start, banged on starter with a hammer and it started. Drove back to dock, while in reverse it stalled, I limped in. It sat for 1 1/2 weeks untill I got a starter, put the starter in, it hung up, Then I shimed it, still hunged up, figured at that time I'd change plugs. Water came out of the right 2 front cylinders, also water came out of the 2 rear left cylinders and the front left cylinder (maybe this is why the engine wasn't turning??). Tried to start it, NO LUCK. blew air in all cylinders, sprayed a lot of fogging oil. Was only able to turn the crank with a breaker bar back and fourth 1/4 turn. I just put the plugs back in and will let it sit over night.
WHAT A HAPPENED, I DON'T KNOW!! There is brownish milky oil about 2" above fill line. If water got in at the starter, how did it get in the cylinders. Where could the water in cylinders be coming from?? Maybe from stalling backing up via shutter valve. Please, Please advise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

The milky oil two inches above fill means water is in the oil. Could be many issues, if you had 15 gallons of water in there that could be it...and prob is....Its not going to get in the crank case via the starter, the fly wheel is seperated from the crank case.

You are going to need to do a complete tare down and rebuild and will prob need a few new parts.


.

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

I understand. Then why water in crankcase and cylinders on both banks? It's been sitting (fresh water for 1 1/2 weeks since it ran last). Why am I having a hard time turning the crank with a breaker bar, even after blowing out the cylinders and spraying tons of fogging oil. However, I was able to get the crank to turn 1/4 each way. In the begining, I couldn't move it 2" either way. The water was rusty when blowing it out. Could too much water in the bilge be the reason, then leading to internal failure or was there internal failure 1st.

I really appreciate that you answered my question.
Thank you!
John

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

The water could have got in the engine 100 ways but considering yor story leads me to beleive the 15 gallons of water in the engine compartment did it. I dont know how your boat is designed but I know 5 gallons of water in my bilge will partly submerge the oil pan, any higher then that and the risk of the water getting in the engine goes up.

The water in the cylinders would lead me to beleive that there was water pooled on the engine and it found its way in via the intake, carb, head, or what ever.

If the water in sitting on the pistons, it will most likly find its way to the crankcase from there unless you have a bran new engine that has a perfect piston ring seal, and even then it will prob get in. I would think the oil pan gasket may also have played a role.

The fact that the water is rusty suggest your piston ring are rusted up now, and perhap the piston head unless they are aluminum.

You have probly been able to slowly work some movement into it by soaking the oil in and rocking it, it will go faster will a good penatrating oil istead of fogging oil. Try something formulated to bust rust free. PB blaster may do it.

Also remove the starter and make sure the drive is not in gear. If you can break it free and clean it you could probly limp through the rest of the season after a few oil changes to clean the water out. But the best bet would be to just rip it down and rebuild.

Mind you this is all based on the idea the water got there because of the flooding. You could also have a cracked block, head, or manifold. Those problem would also do this.

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Thank you again for your knowledge and consulting me in my time of need.

Here's the story. A few weeks ago I went to look at a 1990 Regal 233 XL Ambassador. Before hand I was told the boat ran great except it would not stay ideling unless it stayed above a few RPM's (700 holley, needed to be rebuilt) .When I went to look at the boat another coulpe beat me to it. So, the family and I packed up and visited the State Marina. While there I saw the same boat refueling, but it stayed for a long time while other boats came and went. I saw the prospected buyers leave and I approached the seller. He said the starter wasn't working, at that time he had somone bang on the starter while he turned the key, it started but he had to keep the idel up. He told me to meet him at his boat dock (shared covered slip). The boat took off and looked great on the water. While at his slip, one of the things he told me was that while the boat was under the covered slip a strong wind blown rain allowed gallons of water to collect in the bilge. he pumped it out and it ran fine. he also said that maybe the starter got rusted from the excess water and would need to be replaced. He then said if he can get it running he can give me a short ride. It started and the ride was great, however everytime he had to put it in gear he had to do so under high idel. When coming in and backing the boat up he had to jam it once again in reverse at a higher idel an it stalled. He tried starting it but with no luck. We worked out a deal and I towed the boat home thinking it just needed a carb rebuild & starter. You now know the rest of the story. I don't know if he was pulling a fast one or could it be a coinsidences and it took in water (hydrolock) when quickly backing up and stalling. I did not notice milky oil earlier, but it was dark under the slip. Please advise and tell me what you think I should do. I have not told the seller, thinking maybe I can cheaply figuire this out. Boy is the wife pissed at me!!!!!!!!

 

[Philster]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Cracked block.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Well, with water in the engine for 1.5 weeks, it's most likely junk. Regardless of how it got there. You can't leave water in them like that.

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

UPDATE!!!

Thanks to Solar7647 advise, this morning I shot a ton BP Blaster into the cylinders, waited awhile and attempted to turn the crank. GREAT, crank completely turned around by hand! I drained the oil, it had (9 qts) looked like coffee w/milk on the darkside, added 5 qts of oil and a can of seafoam.

One problem, I can't get the oil filter off, I tried with a band wrench, a filter wench (looks like big pliers), last resort a screw driver since I crushed the filter to pieces, NO LUCK! I don't know whatelse to do and there is very access.

This paragraph is only my opinion: "I wonder why the motor didn't want to start, maybe water was in the cylinders? The seller had to bang on the starter and squirt starting fluid to get it running and why did the engine have a hard time ideling, maybe under low rpm's water was building up in cylinders. So, it wasn't a starter ploblem as he suggested?????"

Another note, I took the old started to be bench test worked 100%, no sides of water intrusion.

Please advise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your time. John

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

That story makes it sound more like a cracked block. The main issue is, regardless how the water got in there it has done its damage and the engine needs rebuilt, and i would say with a new long block. Its not very difficult to do if you have some experience with motors and the manual. The cost can range between 1500-3000 depending on where you get the new long block.

Good luck

 

[stormrider]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

If you can get to it, hammer & chisel at the oil filter base but be careful not to damage block. Also look for cracks or rusty "lines" just below cylinder head to block mating surface. If you see a crack, then pull it. If not, just maybe it could be an exhaust manifold/riser cracked leaking water into engine. More than likely, you'll be pulling it though, and I had the same thing happen to me. Got me a 3,500 Mariah with about 6,000 in it...lol. Once you get it running, it will all be worth it though

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Point well taken!

I'm too stubborn and don't want to jump into big bucks yet, by the way who has money too throw around these days. I'm taking the poor man route and would like to get in running and see if the crankcase builds up with fluid. But I got to get that dam filter off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should I use a screwdriver or chisel.

What is everyones opinion: If it does need major repair, should I approach the seller and what do I say. It's so crazy. We went for a ride drove great, oil up, temp cool had plenty of power, then I tow it home to replace the starter and I get this. What do you tell somebody?? Do you think he knew? Bought the boat 7/16, picked it up 7/23, got the new starter in the mail this week. Do I have any legal action, it was not sold AS IS. Do Ihave any recourse. I hope to GOD I get it running and it was just the flappers letting water in from sudden backing up.
PLEASE ADVISE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

You really dont have any legal ground to stand on. Its a as is buy. You can try talking to him but the out come is based on what kind of guy he is.

I always use a scew drive for oil filters, drive it all the way through, if you dont the case will just rip.

Once you get it off and a new filter on, do a compression check, check the exhaust and intake for cracks. If all checks out see if it will start on muffs.

Your idle problem may be the carb, clean it and adjust it. Then you can go from there.

My opinion if the water is comeing into the engine because of a crack in something, it would be best to start with the intake. I say this because you had water on cylinders that are opposite of each other and the intake goes to both side. For the most part the two side are seperated from each other in every other way.

 

[Doernuth]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

If you can get to it try a pipe wrench on the oil filter. As close to the top of the filter as you can. The screwdriver trick works real well too.

Water could have come in through the carb and intake. Once it gets into the cylinders it will seep past the rings into the oil pan. Anyplace there was water there is now rust.

If it turns over do a compression check. Start on muffs. Look for any leaks. Check oil for water after runing. Let us know what happens...

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Yes, it does make sense.

I tried the screwdriver bit. I'm a big guy 6', 270 ex-power lifter, I tried all my might, I couldn't budge it, I even bent the banded filter wrench. I'm gonna try to chisel the top rim of the filter w/o damaging the block. I agree on your theory, about the intake. I too was puzzled about water on both banks. My opinion is that the seller had to keep the rpm's up and jamed it in gear in reverse and water got into the flappers. He had to do this the whole time when he was selling the boat. He always had an idle problem. I've had several boats in the past but still learning. Can you explain the mechanics of the flapper.

After the filter is replaced are you saying don't start it. Do you want me to 1st do a compression check, then visually check exhaust for cracks. I don't know the technical name but the part mounted above each exhaust manifold (I think riser)
there is a dried, rusted water spillover on each side where they bolt to the exh manifold. Besides visually checking whatelse is there to do?
Could that be an indication of my problem. I can take a picture of it, but I don't know how to send it via this site. If you like I email it to you. My email is prayers1@cox.net.

Thank you for your time,
John

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Yes, it does make sense.

I tried the screwdriver bit. I'm a big guy 6', 270 ex-power lifter, I tried all my might, I couldn't budge it, I even bent the banded filter wrench.

Well maybe you can have the old lady give it shot....Sounds like the seal melted

I'm gonna try to chisel the top rim of the filter w/o damaging the block. I agree on your theory, about the intake. I too was puzzled about water on both banks. My opinion is that the seller had to keep the rpm's up and jamed it in gear in reverse and water got into the flappers. He had to do this the whole time when he was selling the boat. He always had an idle problem. I've had several boats in the past but still learning. Can you explain the mechanics of the flapper.

The flappers are just a shutter, that hang in the exhust pipe. They stay open to allow water and fumes to leave the engine but will close when there is pressure coming the wrong way up the pipe. They are a safe guard so that if for example the engine stall and dies at high RPM and the boat slowes real fast the water from the wake that will swamp the stern dosnt make it into the engine.

I dont think the resverse thing your talking about will get water up there unless the drive wass the way up and he was going back with alot of force.

After the filter is replaced are you saying don't start it. Do you want me to 1st do a compression check, then visually check exhaust for cracks. I don't know the technical name but the part mounted above each exhaust manifold (I think riser)
there is a dried, rusted water spillover on each side where they bolt to the exh manifold. Besides visually checking whatelse is there to do?
Could that be an indication of my problem. I can take a picture of it, but I don't know how to send it via this site. If you like I email it to you. My email is .....

Thank you for your time,
John

No posting email on the forum. Send a private message via the forum. You can add the photos as an attachment by clicking on the paper clip icon on the top of the window for typing.

I would personaly do as much trouble shooting as possible before starting again. You dont want to end up in the same spot because of something you could have caught visually. The water from the riser could be an issue. If those gasket are leaking the other way two they could be draining water into the head and then into the cylinders I dont think they are your issue, but dont rule them out. I would say change them. Its not hard at all. The best I can say for inspection is just go over it and see if you can see any signs of a crack. You prob wont but you never know.

I would also pull the the intake before the next time you start it. This will allow you to clean the lifter case of any watery oil and allow yo to inspect the intake it self at the most it will just be the cost of gaskits and the time. clean it real good with carb clean and look over it with a fine tooth comb. If you see something and your not sure post a ppic and someone will be able to supply another oppinion.

Once you do start you will most likly need to bring it up to a high rpm. There wont be a hole lot of pressure at low rpm and may not leak and if there is a crack it will open more when it get hot from running at higher rpm..

 

[gbeltran]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

With water in the cylinders and the inability to idle I'd say your exhaust manifolds are likely shot.

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

How do you determine if the exhaust manifolds are shot. Is there a repair kit or do they need to be replaced or do you take them off and inspect the inside???

As for the oil filter. I planned on chisling it, but couldn't get both hands where I need to. The clearence is too small for me. I went to Autozone tonight and bought several different types of filter wrenchs.

Is it true that maybe the rubber seal melted to the block, making it impossible to take the filter off.

Any suggestions.

Thanks John

 

[solar7647]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

The rubber seal can melt and it makes it hard but not impossible. I had it happen to my wifes car and once i got it off you could see the rubber stuck to the mount.

If your manifolds are shot, that would mean they are cracked or they rusted out. You will need to take them off and check them. The only way to fix is to replace.

 

[Johnny Be Cool]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

Am I looking only for cracks? I see there is also elbows and risers. Are the risers the rectangular box ontop of the exhaust manifold. The bolts to that box look pretty shot, almost as if the heads are rusted out. How do these items let water into the block if cracked?? I would think they would just leak externally.

When looking at my block today, it appears that it had been replaced not too long ago, maybe 4-5 years ago. There is no Mercruiser tag and it is freshly painted, it might be even newer.

As for the oil filter, if the rubber seal melted to the block, then the exhaust manifolds did get too hot and maybe cracked. All of my attention has now diverted to the oil filter, I'm finding it almost impossible, it's crushed from working on it all day. I bought a stronger metal band wrench, a chain type of wrench and a long needle noose type of plyer wrench tonight. I can't reach in there with two hands and chisle to top ring of the filter.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject.

Going to bed and hopefully I'll have a good dream on how to take the filter off. I'm mentally and physically tired. It's been so hot and humid, that boat is taking a toll on me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Night!

 

[marlboro180]

Re: Water in cylinders -HELP-what to do!!!!!!!

If you can snip off the outer shell of the filter fairly close to the base,
Try using a pin wrench on the holes in the base of the filter.

Looks something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/VT-P33554-Adjustable-Pin-Wrench/dp/B001RMK2HQ