connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfires

LAC_STS

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Sorry about the long post but I got a lot of info.


Any of you who saw my earlier thread about my oil filter mess know what a PITA it was.

I had knocked a wire off of the thing above the oil filter which I thought was the oil pressure sender or something. It had 3 or 4 (forget) wires connected to it.

Anyways I put it back on and then yes I went out on the boat but the engine kept cutting off. Then I would play with the throttle and it would come back. It was running great when it wasn't cutting off.

I took the flame arrestor off and realized that there was no fuel being fed to the carb. I checked the fuel pump by hooking it up for a quick sec to 12V and it came on. So I started checking for loose connections. I could see that 2 of the connections on the thing above the oil filter that I had knocked a wire off of were very loose. I put new connectors on them and the engine started right up and stopped cutting out.

Then it ran great for about 10 mins then it started acting weird and I could hear what I think might be backfiring coming out of the carb. I had thought I had heard this before on my first run after installing the new engine. But it only did it a couple times then went away so I didn't think anything about it.

But now it wont go above about 3K RPM and when I approach 3K or over 2500 it starts running like crap and backfiring more.


When the engine had cut off before I discovered those wires were loose I was trying to start it a bunch. So much that the battery died but luckily I had a jump box with me. This was before I took the flame arrestor off and noticed it wasn't getting fuel.

When me and my friend installed the engine we hooked everything up then had my friends boss who is a mech come over and set the timing and adjust the carb. He set the timing @ idle to 8 degrees but I don't think he checked to see if it was advancing correctly and this was all on muffs.

The entire engine is new except for the dist which is a breaker point Prestolyte type.

Questions are:

Could I have messed something up trying to start the engine so much while it was getting 0 fuel?

What could be causing this backfiring and not going over 3K RPM? It did run great before this.

Does the timing and carb have to be set in the water so it can be tested under load and at different RPMs?

Since the dist looks pretty old I was thinking of getting a new ESA module and installing an electronic ignition. I have a brand new HEI dist with 50K coil sitting around. Should I do this? Or should I just replace the points and stuff in my dist?

I am really thinking about taking the boat to a mech and paying them to tune it up real good. Set the timing right, adjust the carb, check everything out from the install, and either install the electronic IGN or service the old dist.

I just wanna be able to use the boat the rest of the season and not have to worry about this crap. Thats why I dropped the money on a new engine to begin with.


What do you guys suggest I do in this situation? I have a brand new engine with only 15 hours on it. It ran great the first 10 hours. then I had the oil filter mess at eh 10 hour oil change and now I have all this going on. I think that the carb and or timing could have not been set up right but it did run great for the first 10 hours.

Do new engines need to be re timed or re tuned after a little while when they are first ran? Maybe it was tuned right but needs to be re tuned after being ran for a while?

I dunno I just want it fixed.


Thank you guys so much for all your help since buying this boat.
 

cr2k

Captain
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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

It could be anything, but to narrow it down we need to know what the heck you are working on.
 

LAC_STS

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Sorry its a 25ft Donzi with 5.7 / Cobra drive
 

bruceb58

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

So...obviouslly your engine didn't come with an electric fuel pump. Did you put it on? Normally, you have the fuel pump wired so that it either comes on when oil pressure is up or you are cranking the engine.
 

LAC_STS

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Yes it has an electric fuel pump. It was already installed when I bought the engine.

That's what I was guessing was that the reason the fuel pump was connected to that thing above the oil filter was to cut it off when oil pressure dropped.


I dunno
 

Lou C

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

The thing above the oil filter may be the ESA module...if this is not hooked up right it can cause cutting out problems...its function is to lower the idle when you are shifting to neutral to let the clutch dogs release...
 

Cuyose

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Double and triple check the firing order and the spark plug wires. This has happened to me and others before, its entirely possible to mix up a wire and get the backfire through the carb.

And when you think it's correct check again, put masking tape on the wires at the plug end and distributor end labeling what cylinder they are being run to.
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

No the ESA module is by where my shift linkages hook up by the carb.


I fixed the loose connections on the thing above the oil filter. They are not a problem any more. I put new connectors on them.


Problem now is that the engine keeps backfiring and wont go over 3K RPM. It also runs really crappy at anything above 2K RPM.

I am starting to think the distributor is bad or needs serviced with new points and all. It is the only thing that is not brand new and it looks pretty old.

I have a brand new RPC brand HEI electronic dist with 50K coil. I need to find out if all I have to do to make it work is buy the newer style ESA module that accepts the electronic IGN.

The newer style ESA module is not that much $. Seems worth it to me to not have to worry about points and all that crap.



I was talking to a guy about all this and I told him about when I had took the tach out to get a new one and how the engine wouldn't start with the tach out. Once I put the tach back in it started right up. He said that that is not right and that the wiring is messed up somewhere.




So Im starting to think that my problem lies in wiring and the dist.
 

Cuyose

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

I am not sure if your boat has mechanical centrifugal advance, but if it does, when you do a tune up on the Distributor, check under the plate and make sure the advance weights and springs are not seized up.
 

bruceb58

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

What is your dwell and timing at? When did you last change the points?
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

I havent done a tune up on it since I got it. Im debating on whether I should tune it up or install this HEI one I got.
 

bruceb58

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

If the HEI one is not marine you can't put it on for a few reasons.
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Pretty sure it is the place I bought the new engine from gave it to me.

I'll have to double check on that.


Any one done the conversion with a new ESA module? If rather just buy the module then do the resistor rig.
 

bruceb58

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Put in new points and time it. Do that first before you start messing with other stuff.
 

Lou C

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

I have heard on here that the Delco EST is the way to go if you want an electronic ignition system on these older boats...it's a marine system so no safety worries

You need to get a dwell meter on that engine and see what it's at...dwell angle and point gap are inversly related (big gap=small dwell angle and vice versa)...also you may want to check dwell variation at different rpms and most importantly the full mechanical advance at the specified rpm. Also check the cap and rotor, and the resistance of the spark plug wires..

for an 88 5.7 OMC the point gap in my OMC shop manual is 0.017, dwell is 27*-31*
timing should be 8 BTDC using premium gas and 3 BTDC using regular
Total advance (base plus centrifugal advance) at 3000 rpm is 29*

Once you make sure the ignition system is OK then you can further check the fuel system..
And one point often missed is that if the anti siphon valve on the gas tank gets corroded and sticky, you will have a fuel starvation problem that will allow the engine to run at idle and rev OK in neutral but not plane the boat...no power under load...



I really see no good reason to get rid of the points and condenser on these old OMCs because when set right they stay in tune long enough and you only have to replace them when they are pitted or worn to the point where you can't get a good dwell reading...Electronic is nice but if the module takes a dump you are SOL...with points I can put in a set with the boat in the water...set it close enough with the feeler gauge and be back in business in about 20 min...
When I do my spring tune up I warm up the engine on the muffs and let it slow idle...then put the dwell meter on it and check...if it's in spec then I just check the timing and idle and that's it...
We older guys grew up with points in our cars so its really not a big deal to maintain them..

And keep in mind if you don't have a ESA that works right with the electronic ignition you will have problems shifting out of gear with the dog clutch Cobra...
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Yea that's why unwashed saying in my earlier post that I would have to get a newer style ESA (shift assist) module if I went with an electronic IGN.

The part is only $80.

I'm young and know nothing about a points IGN. I could fugue it out real quick and wouldn't be at all concerned about changing the points and servicing the dist myself.

But it makes sense to me to switch to an elec IGN and not have to worry about the points crap every season.
 

Lou C

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Yea that's why unwashed saying in my earlier post that I would have to get a newer style ESA (shift assist) module if I went with an electronic IGN.

The part is only $80.

I'm young and know nothing about a points IGN. I could fugue it out real quick and wouldn't be at all concerned about changing the points and servicing the dist myself.

But it makes sense to me to switch to an elec IGN and not have to worry about the points crap every season.

I'd agree with you if I had a garantee that the electronic ignition and new ESA really worked right...and...if either the electronic ig module or the ESA craps out...can you find a replacement easily? I carry a spare set of points, condenser, cap, rotor etc on the boat.
And you DON'T have to replace them every season, not even me whose boat sits on a mooring in salt water 6 months of the year. If they get pitted, then I replace them. The cap and rotor I do replace each season because they get green corrosion on the terminals...the plugs I at least remove and check...if fouled from the fogging oil then I replace...

read these three links and you'll see that the ancient points system is nothing to be afraid of...I was working on these things when I was 16 years old back in the 70s....

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=329742

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=335407

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=335407
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

The newer style ESA modules are compatible with electronic IGN. The ESA in there now looks like it's the original that came with the boat so I doubt they go out much.

If I was worried about a brand new IGN and ESA module crapping out I ocukd carry the old dist with me.

I have talked to a couple mechs that work on omc and they both said they like to put the electronic IGN in them.

The one even has the new ESA modules in stock.


I'm thinking about taking the boat there and having him install it and tune it uo just so i know everything is right and I can enjoy it the rest if the season.
 

LAC_STS

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

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Lou C

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Re: connection came loose above oil filter engine cut off wont go over 3K RPM backfir

Don't bother with a website to bash this guy...waste of time...you got information that tells you your engine is OK...

NOW if you are going to get this thing running right you have 2 choices...either find a better (honest, good) mechanic, OR

do what I told you a few posts back

LEARN how the points dist works, trouble shoot it, then fix it

one of the issues I have with internet forums and getting advice this way...is that young uns like yourself may never have READ a real SHOP Manual....well it's time to get schooled...this is how all us old farts learned 40 or so years ago to work on engines...learn the THEORY FIRST AND UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS....not just sound bites of information off the net...these forums are good for asking questions but true understanding of how these systems work will come only from your own education...
SO READ THE LINKS....FORGET ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC STUFF BECAUSE IN THE END IT'S JUST A SWITCH LIKE THE POINTS TO TURN ON AND OFF THE HIGH TENSION CURRENT...LIKE POINTS...IT JUST DOES NOT NEED MAINTENANCE TILL IT STOPS WORKING ONE DAY...READ, UNDERSTAND, TROUBLE SHOOT AND THEN REPORT BACK....
 
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