What is minimal drift?

Ned L

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Uncle Willie - Thank you for correcting my mis-information. I was not aware they could actually stop that fast.
 

southkogs

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I'm an Engineer, and all this matter why????
LOL ... so far I'm in the "why not?" column. :D

Though, some of the position holding technology mentioned early in the topic is stuff I really didn't know about. So that was kinda' cool.
 

GA_Boater

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"Minimal drift" is the term applied to staying close to topic after asking a question following up on random Google search results.
 

dingbat

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LOL ... so far I'm in the "why not?" column. :D

Though, some of the position holding technology mentioned early in the topic is stuff I really didn't know about. So that was kinda' cool.

Google Inertial-navigation systems. The stuff has been around for years. It's the basis of just about every autopilot on the market
 

achris

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LOL ... so far I'm in the "why not?" column. :D

Though, some of the position holding technology mentioned early in the topic is stuff I really didn't know about. So that was kinda' cool.

I work on large survey and construction vessels, and the systems I mentioned are only the surface/land/air based systems. Seabed located systems are a whole new world of pain... :D You can use an array of subsea beacons, a system called LDL (Long base line), or a single subsea beacon, called USBL (Ultra short base line), or an array of USBL beacons, or a single subsea beacon and 2 receivers on the vessel (usually one to the pointy end and one at the blunt end) called SBL (short base line).... And new systems are being developed on a regular basis. We now have the ability to position structures and pipelines on the seabed with an accuracy measured in millimetres... and I have seen that done in over 1200metres of water (about 4000 feet)....

I wonder if the OP is asking about the minimum speed required to maintain control/steerage?

Chris........
 

achris

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Google Inertial-navigation systems. The stuff has been around for years. It's the basis of just about every autopilot on the market

Auto-pilot and DP are 2 entirely different things. Inertial navigation is just knowing where you started, and using your speed (from a 'log'), course (from a gyro) and set and drift, estimating where you should be... And that is not used by auto-pilots. What's used by auto-pilots is heading, or a GPS (or Loran) input (which adjusts the heading fed to the AP according to the current position and the selected waypoint).

Chris.....
 

thumpar

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So what is the reason for the question? On my boat I can be at full speed and if I bring the throttle back to idle it will drop off plane and slow down very fast. I would guess faster than a car at the same speed.
 

southkogs

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My head hurts.
:D

... We now have the ability to position structures and pipelines on the seabed with an accuracy measured in millimetres... and I have seen that done in over 1200metres of water (about 4000 feet)....
If I get nothing else outta' the topic, that right there is pretty nifty. Thanks achris.
 

Myrtonos

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Venice, Italy has them, same with Amsterdam.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationP...ce_Veneto.html

Carful... in the states we do use them around construction/dredging operations and traffic lights are used for locks and draw/swing bridges.

But it seems the ones you have in the states aren't at junctions and maneging canal traffic, I was thinking of traffic lights at river/canal junctions, acutally managing conflicts between vessel approaching 90 degrees apart. If you have any traffic lights on the water, a boat sitting at a red light would need to be anchored or moored to protect against drifiting through a red light. Also, as boats (being without brakes) often need paths allocated to them in dense traffic, marine traffic signals could not run in cycles like road traffic lights do. Boats don't have brakes and run at much longer headways than land vehicles of similar size, such that only one boat would be allowed per green light on each (allocated) path. If say two boats were approaching a canal junction 90 degrees apart, the merit of each would need to be decied before either arrives at the junction, either aribitarily by a traffic director, or a pre-determined system of priorities.

Minimal drift is ambiguous without qualifying. Drift to stop, holding a position, bearing vs course vs direction vs heading vs track????? :noidea:

Hence the question "what is minimal drift?"

Sir Isaac Newton and the laws of physics might disagree with you... The boat contains a certain amount of kinetic energy. Moving through the water imparts drag, which subtracts energy. At some point your drag absorbs all kinetic energy and you stop. Otherwise you just invented the first perpetual motion machine. Keep in mind drag from water IS an external force... Think of it the other way, you are saying at some point that drag goes away entirely. That is the only way it could continue moving for infinity. Outside of a vecuum, drag never disappears.

It is absolutely the same as a vehicle that you let coast on a perfectly flat piece of concrete. Its going to coast for a long time, but it will eventually come to a complete and dead stop. The mass of the vehicle and the medium it is traveling through (air or water) make zero difference, drag always wins eventually.

Dynamic properties of water mean that it is not "absolutely the same," and the medium in which it performs does make a difference. When a boat coasts, its rate of deceleration relative to the water decreases as it slows, the slower it is moving relative to the water, the less water it displaces, so it does in fact get progressively slower relative to the water without quite reaching a complete stop relative to the water.

because a vessel hovering over a river bed must go upstream in relation to the water flowing over the bed

Uhhh, no. A vessel 'hovering' over a riverbed is by definition stationary in relation to the riverbed. True, water may be flowing under the hull, but it's water moving, not the hull. Practical definition would have 'upstream' be the direction water is moving from, 'downstream' is the direction water is moving to. The vessel isn't going either direction if it's in a true 'hover'. Be that as it may, mayhap you can define which direction a vessel is moving when hovering over the bed of a true tidal river ... :faint2:

It may be stationary in relation to the riverbead, but as I said, it is heading upstream in relation to the water flowing over the bed. There is a difference between hovering above a riverbed and being tied to the ground, but not between hovering in one place above the riverbed and between going downstream at twice the speed of the water, apart from direction, both boats maintaining equal and opposite power and the same amount of steerage.
 

thumpar

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You still haven't said what the 'ell you are trying to get at. Seems to me you are overthinking boating.
 

achris

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...Hence the question "what is minimal drift?"....

As I asked right at the beginning.... In what context?

It's just like asking "What is fast?" What are the terms of reference? Fast to a car is slow to an aeroplane....

You've either heard it in a conversation or read it somewhere... What is the rest of the paragraph with 'minimal drift' in it? Give us a sense of context.

Chris...
 
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Myrtonos

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Frist I did answer your question, someone on this forum did use the term mininal drift, in terms of how long it takes to bring a bow rider from planing speed to minimal drift whilst never achieving a true stop.
It is unclear whether minimal drift means relative to the ground, water or both, but now it seems it can be used in both contexts.
 

achris

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Well, I've re-read all your posts, and I can't see it. As for 'bring a boat from planing to drift without stopping', what about if the drift is in the opposite direction to the previous course of travel? In order to be 'drifting' the boat MUST have reached a true stop before starting to drift in the opposite direction.... I do it all the time when I'm fishing... Find my desired fishing spot, travel up current/wind, stop the engine and wait for the boat to stop and start drifting down onto the fishing spot.... Repeat until fishing bag is full... :D

As for drift, I don't see a 'minimal' or 'maximal', drift is drift... It's the speed the vessel with travel a without engine input, which is determined by prevailing conditions at the time, and the configuration of the vessel.... As for minimum drift of my boat... 0.01knots (That's the lowest speed my GPS will indicate)... Less than that and I'm technically stopped.

Please, provide a link to the post about this bowrider. I'd love to read it (as would a few others I suspect)....

Chris.....
 
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Myrtonos

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Well, I've re-read all your posts, and I can't see it. As for 'bring a boat from planing to drift without stopping', what about if the drift is in the opposite direction to the previous course of travel? In order to be 'drifting' the boat MUST have reached a true stop before starting to drift in the opposite direction.... I do it all the time when I'm fishing... Find my desired fishing spot, travel up current/wind, stop the engine and wait for the boat to stop and start drifting down onto the fishing spot.... Repeat until fishing bag is full... :D

For the drift to be in the opposite direction (depending on the context the term drift is used), either it has to be thrown into reverse thrust and/or there must be current in the oppisite direction to the course of travel, as when heading upstream on a river. You say the boat must have reached a "true stop" before strating to drift in the opposite direction, but it most likely went from foward to reverse in an instant, with no (detectable) gap between forward and reverse movement, and therefore no measurable cesation of movement.

It wasn't a post about a bow rider, it was a message about differences between boats and cars.
 

achris

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I think this is the passage you're referring to.. This is not 'minimal drift' (I haven't found anywhere this term is used), it's just 'set and drift'... BTW, I've driven many vehicles where the vehicle is not going where it's nose is pointed. ;) :D

When you walk across the road, you reach the kerbside directly across from the entry point, same applies when riding a bicycle or driving any other ground vehicle across the road, that is with the nose of the vehicle straight towards the other side. This is not the case with a boat heading straight across a river of any width, with the bow pointing towards to other side, but rather at an angle in the downstream direction. If a boat does travel straight across a river, it will be at an angle in the upstream direction. Or, when a bow rider is overtaking a ship on a river less than a mile wide, its bow will point away from the ship while passing it, whether in the same direction or opposite direction, due to draw between the vessels.

You say the boat must have reached a "true stop" before starting to drift in the opposite direction, but it most likely went from foward to reverse in an instant, with no (detectable) gap between forward and reverse movement, and therefore no measurable cesation of movement.

If it goes from forward to reverse, then it MUST have, even if for a very short period of time, been at velocity 0.0 knots. ie a dead stop. You can not go from a speed in forward, even if it's just 1 knot, to a speed in reverse, it would require infinite power. Are you referring to the time taken to go from 'speed' to 'no speed'. 'No speed' being just movement caused by external forces (wind and current)?

Maybe this is what you're asking... -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_drift

Chris......
 
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Myrtonos

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I think this is the passage you're referring to.. This is not 'minimal drift' (I haven't found anywhere this term is used), it's just 'set and drift'... BTW, I've driven many vehicles where the vehicle is not going where it's nose is pointed. ;) :D

A normal ground vehicle in nearly always in line with the direction of travel, and when it isn't, it must necessarily be skidding, and skidding sideways.

If it goes from forward to reverse, then it MUST have, even if for a very short period of time, been at velocity 0.0 knots. ie a dead stop. You can not go from a speed in forward, even if it's just 1 knot, to a speed in reverse, it would require infinite power. Are you referring to the time taken to go from 'speed' to 'no speed'. 'No speed' being just movement caused by external forces (wind and current)?

But it might not take anymore than 1 second to go from 1 knot one way to 1 knot the other, and astern propulsion will likely be operated befare it starts going the other way and therefore cannot be a 0.0 knots for any mesurable, let along meaningful amount of time, this is not a true stop for any intents or purposes. If it at 0.1 knots one microsecond with astern propulsion operating, it will 0.1 knots or many more the other way the next microsecond.
 

achris

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A) I was being facetious...
B) Regardless of how long it takes to transition from ahead to astern, for some finite time velocity will be zero.
C) You have your answer about the boat not making it to the point it is facing, it's called 'set and drift', not 'minimal drift'
D) This conversation should end now. Let's let the thread die a normal and natural death, rather than it being closed.

Chris...
 

Myrtonos

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A) No comment
B) My point is, the velocity will only be zero for an infintisimal amount of time, in other words an instant.
C) Of course that is not the same as minimal drift, someone on this forum actually used the term 'minimal drift' in a message to me. The message was sent long ago, and I can't find it.
D) If you let me be.
 
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