Installing emergency generator receptacle outside (? ground fault circuit)

[Expidia]

installing the transfer switch inside the house next to electrical service box. Then a cable goes through the garage wall to the outside and will be installing a receptacle box outside. Since when one goes to plug in a portable generator it can be wet and stormy at the time the power is knocked out.
I don't see any mention of using a ground fault circuit breaker in the company's instructions.

Wouldn't this be a good idea to use one?

Transfer switch model 31410CRK

Instructions: http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Documents/31406CRK Instructions English.pdf

thx

 

[StingrayMike]

I dont think it would add any value since the transfer switch has circuit breakers for each load switch, but it really couldnt hurt either. If it makes you comfortable when using the generator, then go for it.

 

[MTboatguy]

GFI is a cheap insurance, I even run them on my travel trailer and use a GFI cord on my generator.

 

[Tim Frank]

installing the transfer switch inside the house next to electrical service box. Then a cable goes through the garage wall to the outside and will be installing a receptacle box outside. Since when one goes to plug in a portable generator it can be wet and stormy at the time the power is knocked out.
I don't see any mention of using a ground fault circuit breaker in the company's instructions.

Wouldn't this be a good idea to use one?

Transfer switch model 31410CRK

Instructions: http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Documents/31406CRK Instructions English.pdf

thx

If you plug the generator in before starting it, why do you need a GFI?

 

[Expidia]

thx for those responses. Yes, thats what my son read in the instructions which is to plug it in before starting it. After calling the generator company they said portable generators because they are used on job sites have gsha GFI circuits built in. But the 240 30 amp circuit that we plug the heavy wire and then plug the other end into the 30 amp receptacle that we mounted on the side of the house that runs to the transfer switch with 8 feet of 10-3 with ground to the transfer switch in basement is not GFI protected.

The generator company said because everything is grounded a GFI is not needed as long as everything is plugged in before the generator is started.
And the 240 30 amp circuit is not GFI.

** And wouldn't you know we spent 4 hours hooking everything up turned on the new generator and nothing, nada, zip :mad-new:
I forgot to bring my tester with me, so I could not safely isolate what the issue is yesterday. I'm going back sunday to try and isolate it.

We used an extension cord from a 15 amp circuit on the running generator to a work light while we hooked up all the wires to the main panel in the basement. So we at least know the 15 amp circuits are functioning.

I only see 3 areas where the problem could be:
1. the new generators 240 30 amp circuit is faulty.
2. the transfer switch is faulty or blown (was bot off ebay supposedly new and was with the original packaging)
3. the 30 amp receptacle that came new with the switch (sealed in plastic) is faulty.

Once I check each of the above for current flow then we can call the transfer switch c/s reps to rule out a bad switch.



I left all the wires uncut incase he moves to a new house we can take the transfer switch with him and we can re-install it.
(I also wire tied the extra wires together for neatness when I finished, not shown)

 

[Expidia]

here is a probable answer my son just found: Ok. I have now have the answer. Neutral bond generators don't work with most transfer switches. You need to install a switched neutral kit in the transfer switch or buy one that already has one installed which is as expensive as the generator. They don't make a switched neutral kit for my switch. My only option would be to buy a different kit.

 

[StarTed]

Hi Expidia,

Maybe I can add something for you to consider. I retired after working 36 years for the power company. The neutral shouldn't be a problem unless it's bonded to ground at the generator. The bond at your main panel should be the only ground bond you have to the neutral. Adding another ground will create a "ground loop" that is bad in our day of electronics.Third harmonics can be a real problem.

The way a GFI works is that it compares the current in the hot lead with the return. If they are not equal, it trips. If some current should go to ground, they're not equal and it trips. 240 volts is more difficult because you now have 3 conductors carrying current. You can see the difficulty in measuring the current from one conductor and compare with 2 others. Especially if there is power factors involved.

Maybe you could break the neutral connection to any ground at the generator when using it on your house.

 

[Expidia]

thx for that response. I'm sure we could break the ground but at what future risk? We will check with the switch maker and the generator company for their response. I have no qualms about calling in an electrician but if its the wrong switch it won't matter. It's not my connections thats the issue I think from what my son read its a need to install a switched neutral kit in the transfer switch! the companies can tell us what that entails.

 

[NYBo]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. This is a manual transfer switch, and neutral bonding at the generator won't affect the operation of the switches, AFAIK. I think it would only be a problem with automatic transfer switches. (You did flip the switches to test the installation, right?)


Verify that the neutral and hots are wired properly at each point.

 

[Expidia]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. This is a manual transfer switch, and neutral bonding at the generator won't affect the operation of the switches, AFAIK. I think it would only be a problem with automatic transfer switches. (You did flip the switches to test the installation, right?)


Verify that the neutral and hots are wired properly at each point.

thx. will do.

 

[Expidia]

Hi Expidia,

Maybe I can add something for you to consider. I retired after working 36 years for the power company. The neutral shouldn't be a problem unless it's bonded to ground at the generator. The bond at your main panel should be the only ground bond you have to the neutral. Adding another ground will create a "ground loop" that is bad in our day of electronics.Third harmonics can be a real problem.

The way a GFI works is that it compares the current in the hot lead with the return. If they are not equal, it trips. If some current should go to ground, they're not equal and it trips. 240 volts is more difficult because you now have 3 conductors carrying current. You can see the difficulty in measuring the current from one conductor and compare with 2 others. Especially if there is power factors involved.

Maybe you could break the neutral connection to any ground at the generator when using it on your house.

Still trying to just unbond the neutral so we can plug it into the service panel through the switch:
We tried unhooking the white wire jumper in the middle of the pics that was connected to the ground, but still no power at the switch.
But when I unhooked the neutral from the generator as a test I did get power at the switch but when I went to test it flipping only one breaker to the generator position . . . I fried the ac adapter for his modem which was on that circuit. I guess by disconnecting the neutral totally at the generator as a test I was sending 220 (black and red legs to the switch without the neutral connected.

From what I've read on various forums and here too, all I would need to do is disconnect that white jumper off the grounded lug with the green grounding wire still leaving that ground connected.

What am I still doing wrong?

 

[Expidia]

Update; My son stopped by a local shop who were very helpful to him with this issue.
And at the same time I had another response from a posting I did on a generator fourm.
They both said to use an interlock on the service panel instead of a transfer switch:

From a poster on the powerequipmentforum.com:
Disconnecting the jumper should make the generator "floating neutral."
First of all do you get 240 vac out of the generator when it is NOT connected to the transfer switch. Lets eliminate that as a problem first.
I really like "interlocks" instead of the transfer switch you are using. They are a lot simpler and you have much less wiring to do, not to mention that using the panel manufacturer's interlock is usually MUCH cheaper.
Both neutral bars should be bonded together in your panel so that should not be an issue.

The local shop who spent an hour with my son was:
Abmbrose electric
Electricians
Address: 790 Watervliet Shaker Rd # 2, Latham, NY 12110

* They are even sending a tech out at no charge to look over what we have done so far to make sure an interlock will work with our situation.
In my day . . . This is the way business's and service people used to do business! As they appreciated referrals.

 

[bigdee]

Looking at your panel it would be very easy to make an interlock for only a few bucks. I made one for my panel using a scrap piece of lexan that is tied to the main breaker and a backfed breaker. Both breakers are securely interlocked from being on or off at the same time. I made mine in less than 30 minutes.

 

[dingbat]

Looking at your panel it would be very easy to make an interlock for only a few bucks. I made one for my panel using a scrap piece of lexan that is tied to the main breaker and a backfed breaker. Both breakers are securely interlocked from being on or off at the same time. I made mine in less than 30 minutes.

That is how mine is done. Breaker dedicated to the welder. Used as a back feed by generator

 

[Expidia]

Thanks for those comments. We are ordering the interlock parts and extra breaker.

 

[bigdee]

No Title

Crude but functional

 

[Expidia]

Crude but functional

Thx. Pretty ingenious!