1976 Johnson 85hp V4 Starts on Muffs Not in Lake

[Woodonglass]

Ok, I'm NOT much of a Mek-A-Nek soooo, HELP!!!! Got this motor 2 years ago, went thru the carbs, New Plugs, Impellar etc... First time out she started up ran fine for 10 mins then Heat alarm sounded. Found out when I installed lower unit did not get water tube aligned properly. fixed that. Pumps water great now. Last two trips to the lake resulted in her NOT running. Today I put her on the MUFFs before we left. Ran great for 15 mins both idle and in reverse and forward. She would rev up great and idle too.I DID have to use Starting Fluid to get her started first time. Drove 45 mins to lake, dropped her in. Wouldn't start. Shot more starting fluid, she started but... would not rev. In neutral, at idle, I was at the motor trying to rev her up with the linkage and as soon as I would attempt to rev...she would die. Motor NOT under load. Wife is getting tired of making the trip only to have her not start. I MUST get this figured out.

I've searched the forum and found some info about possible carb issues etc. but...why wil she run sooo Good on the muffs but NOT in the lake. It's NOT a load issue cuz I was NOT trying to put her in gear, just trying to get her to run in neutral. I guess I can remove the Carbs AGAIN and see if that will fix it


HELP!!! this OldDumbOkie out!!! Spent 3 years restoring this 61' Lonestar and I can't enjoy her. VERY Frustrated!!!!

 

[jimmbo]

Have you done a compression check since you overheated it? A bit of Advice, NEVER use starting fluid on a two stroke gas engine. It will wash the lube off the bearings, and because it ignites from compression, it could ignite inside the crankcase. If you need to prime the engine, spray some gas-oil into the carbs

 

[interalian]

Choke working properly as in closing fully when you hit the key? There's more exhaust backpressure on the motor when you're in the lake vs muffs, so it might take some more time warming up with some choke bumps and fast idle.

 

[GA_Boater]

How are you setting the idle needles, Woody?

Usually the needles are set from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns out from lightly seated. This is a ballpark setting to keep the motor running while fine tuning the needles.

Back the boat into the lake, still tied down on the trailer, start it up and on the top carb, turn the needle in until the motor starts to stumble, then turn the needle out until it stumbles again. Set the needle to the midpoint and move on to the other carb to do the same.

I'm not a Jonny man, but the procedure is pretty much the same for any carbed outboard with adjustable idle needles. One change is you may have 2 barrel carbs, so you need to move from side to side doing the in stumble, out stumble and midpoint, then adjust the other carb, going from side to side. I'll really plead ignorance on the 2 barrel carbs if you have them.

 

[Woodonglass]

How are you setting the idle needles, Woody?

Usually the needles are set from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns out from lightly seated. This is a ballpark setting to keep the motor running while fine tuning the needles.

Back the boat into the lake, still tied down on the trailer, start it up and on the top carb, turn the needle in until the motor starts to stumble, then turn the needle out until it stumbles again. Set the needle to the midpoint and move on to the other carb to do the same.

I'm not a Jonny man, but the procedure is pretty much the same for any carbed outboard with adjustable idle needles. One change is you may have 2 barrel carbs, so you need to move from side to side doing the in stumble, out stumble and midpoint, then adjust the other carb, going from side to side. I'll really plead ignorance on the 2 barrel carbs if you have them.

The Fast Idle needles on this model are internal. Not outside adjustments. Just need to clean them when you do the carb rebuild. I did but it's been 3 years. They could be clogged. :noidea:

 

[Woodonglass]

Choke working properly as in closing fully when you hit the key? There's more exhaust backpressure on the motor when you're in the lake vs muffs, so it might take some more time warming up with some choke bumps and fast idle.

On this motor I have the ability to choke electrically or Manually. I've confirmed that the choke is functioning properly. I did try applying choke when at the lake, while she was idling and she did not rev up. Electric and manual. Same results. I don't think its fuel lines cuz she runs so good on muffs!!!!

 

[F_R]

Are the carburetors and spark advance properly synchronized? Is the spark advance moving freely as you operate the throttle? Sometimes they get sticky and don't want to move, resulting in carburetors opening before spark advances.

Do you have good (7/16") spark with plugs in? Is it cranking fast enough?

Hate to tell you this, but failure to start in the water is one symptom of a worn out or badly damaged engine. Have you checked the compression yet?

Personally, I suspect you have an ignition problem. But that's a diagnosis from a distance.

 

[Woodonglass]

I believe the spark advance is just fine...If it's what you're describing why would it run so well on muffs while in neutral but NOT in the lake in Neutral. There's NO Load in either case and The synchronization issue would be the same wouldn't it?? If plugs were not sparking good It wouldn't run any better on muffs than in the lake would it??? Again it's always in Neutral.. I checked compression last year and highest was 135 lowest 132.

I've done further research and it appears that it's hard to tell if you've got a bad cylinder based on it running well on muffs. Gunna do a compression check ASAP and see if the overheating issue last year caused damage. Sounds as if it might have!!!!

I'll report back on my findings. thanks to everyone!!!

 

[mickyryan]

Ok this m8ght seem silly but ate you adjusting with boat at same angle? I ask because i had this problem once it was a angle situation the other time my dad had lowered rear of car and as i drove into mountains the car would starve for fuel because the pickup in tank was going dry... just two easy ones to figure out

 

[mickyryan]

If it runs well on muffs , sitting in water would be no different until you put under a load, does it have a shut off safetly switch or anything like that that needs to be wet before it will run?

 

[oldboat1]

Sorry to see you have motor issues, WOG. But fix may be as easy for you as glassing in a stringer.

Good choice to do the additional compression test, although running on muffs can conceal ignition issues just as well (along with water pump issues). Sinking the unit in water creates back pressure.

Not sure how badly you overheated, but a fairly standard response is to replace head gaskets, resurfacing head cover mating surfaces on the assumption there is some warping. In any case, I think I would take it's temp to make absolutely sure it's running cool now -- big fan of infrared testers. Thing is, you want to be in the water to test cooling via the water pump.

The choke plates may not be actually closing, even if the solenoid is clicking or the choke appears to be operating with the manual knob. Cold starting that motor can be kind of a bugger. You might try operating the choke by moving the linkage manually, and may want to physically reach in and push on the plates to make sure they close. If choking has no effect when the motor is idling, it sounds offhand like the choke might not be engaging.

Assume gas in the tank is fresh, with no water lurking in there.

 

[F_R]

I believe the spark advance is just fine...If it's what you're describing why would it run so well on muffs while in neutral but NOT in the lake in Neutral. There's NO Load in either case and The synchronization issue would be the same wouldn't it?? If plugs were not sparking good It wouldn't run any better on muffs than in the lake would it??? Again it's always in Neutral.. I checked compression last year and highest was 135 lowest 132.

I've done further research and it appears that it's hard to tell if you've got a bad cylinder based on it running well on muffs. Gunna do a compression check ASAP and see if the overheating issue last year caused damage. Sounds as if it might have!!!!

I'll report back on my findings. thanks to everyone!!!

Being in the water creates back pressure on the exhaust. It does make a difference.

On the other issues, hey I'm just telling you what I know. I'm not there to diagnose it in person.

 

[Woodonglass]

Being in the water creates back pressure on the exhaust. It does make a difference.

On the other issues, hey I'm just telling you what I know. I'm not there to diagnose it in person.

I appreciate ALL your input. Not being much of a mechanic, I'm just stating what is logical to me but I'm pretty sure it's not the correct Logic. I'll be continuing to track down the issue and I can only hope that it's NOT a bad motor due to the overheating issue.

Thanks again for taking the time to help

 

[Woodonglass]

Ok this m8ght seem silly but ate you adjusting with boat at same angle? I ask because i had this problem once it was a angle situation the other time my dad had lowered rear of car and as i drove into mountains the car would starve for fuel because the pickup in tank was going dry... just two easy ones to figure out

Not silly at all, I found a LOT of info on that issue. Sadly to say I HAVE been testing with the motor down it it's normal setting both on the muffs and in the lake. Thanks for taking the time to try and help.

 

[mickyryan]

hmm ok its just so strange it runs at home but not on lake , lol id be going nuts if I was you I even talked to a few old timers today and they was stumped then thought I was going to tell them what it was I said we as stumped as you guys , they thought it was a joke waiting for the punch line lol. only other thing I can think of is the pickup has debris around it and sloshing around is freeing it up?... is all I got at this point.

 

[mickyryan]

I know we been going at this as a fuel issue but any way to see if you were getting spark at lake? I was wondering if a corroded wire someplace might be issue as well.
while running in driveway shake the hell out of it and change angles of trailer see if it stalls

 

[Woodonglass]

Sorry to see you have motor issues, WOG. But fix may be as easy for you as glassing in a stringer.

Good choice to do the additional compression test, although running on muffs can conceal ignition issues just as well (along with water pump issues). Sinking the unit in water creates back pressure.

Not sure how badly you overheated, but a fairly standard response is to replace head gaskets, resurfacing head cover mating surfaces on the assumption there is some warping. In any case, I think I would take it's temp to make absolutely sure it's running cool now -- big fan of infrared testers. Thing is, you want to be in the water to test cooling via the water pump.

The choke plates may not be actually closing, even if the solenoid is clicking or the choke appears to be operating with the manual knob. Cold starting that motor can be kind of a bugger. You might try operating the choke by moving the linkage manually, and may want to physically reach in and push on the plates to make sure they close. If choking has no effect when the motor is idling, it sounds offhand like the choke might not be engaging.

Assume gas in the tank is fresh, with no water lurking in there.

Thanks for taking the time to help. I can't find my Compression Checker soooo I ordered another one. Don't have a Heat Sensor but...I think my neighbor might. I was thinking the choke or the float in the carbs. Gunna pull em and check em.

Thanks

 

[redneckvulcanrider]

Well I'm sorry to tell ya this Wood. But I had the exact same issue with the same motor mine was a 1983. Would run fine on muffs but when it was in water it would start and sputter while turning the key. When you would let off key it would die. I didn't have a compression tester at the time. But I pulled out the spark plugs just to check spark while it was dark and just happened to look in the spark plug hole and something didn't look right. So I pulled the head and found a melted piston with shrapnel all imbedded in cylinder wall. It was an anchor but I hope not the same for you.

 

[Woodonglass]

Yeah, I'm REALLY hoping that's NOT the case but...with the overheating I had...I'm not REAL Optimistic!!!!

 

[89retta]

Sorry to tell you but its the motor. Bad compression on 1 or more cylinders. Had the same problem as you on one of my first boats. Also thought the same as you " runs good on the muffs should run good on the water". On that motor of mine had compression of 120,115,120 and 85. Wish you luck