Help identifying a part & leak

Kauaiboy206

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 9, 2017
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Guess this part is actually leaking so I'm trying to find out which part it is & how to service & fix the leak. It's connected to my trim pump.
 

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Bt Doctur

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 29, 2004
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Called the "release lockout" has been eliminated with the newer pumps and cylinders
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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May 19, 2004
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Yep, Reverse lock valve. The early Prestolite pump didn't have internal valving to stop fluid being forced in the opposite direction. The consequence was if there wasn't that valve (or it's out of adjustment), the drive would lift up in reverse gear. There is a full setup and adjustment procedure for it too, and it includes a reverse lockout switch, so the trim pump can't be run while the valve is closed (which 'dead-heads' the pump, never good)....

Chris..........
 

Kauaiboy206

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 9, 2017
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Yep, Reverse lock valve. The early Prestolite pump didn't have internal valving to stop fluid being forced in the opposite direction. The consequence was if there wasn't that valve (or it's out of adjustment), the drive would lift up in reverse gear. There is a full setup and adjustment procedure for it too, and it includes a reverse lockout switch, so the trim pump can't be run while the valve is closed (which 'dead-heads' the pump, never good)....

Chris..........
I guess time to read up on the manual, hopefully it's not too complicated. There's gear oil seeping through there somehow, but the trim works fine but I also have to install the trim sender/limit replacement. This boat did not come with a trim gauge, any reason why? How would the trim limit work if there's no gauge to go by?
 

GaryDoug

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May 11, 2009
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You Operate it by feel or "ear". The gauge is an option on some systems. My neighbor has one without a gauge. Makes setting the trim less repeatable.
 
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achris

More fish than mountain goat
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I guess time to read up on the manual, hopefully it's not too complicated. There's gear oil seeping through there somehow,

Gear oil from the drive? That would indicte a leak at the yoke seal... Nothing to do with the trim system

Kauaiboy206 said:
but the trim works fine but I also have to install the trim sender/limit replacement. This boat did not come with a trim gauge, any reason why? How would the trim limit work if there's no gauge to go by?

Trim gauge and trim limit are 2 completely separate systems. The limit is not set by the gauge, it uses a different switch. First question is, which senders does your boat have? If the senders are on the side of the gimbal ring you can order new senders, and they are moderately difficult to fit... A pain to gain access to the wire passage. If they are the older type, using a small hydraulic ram (mounted to the inner transom plate) to drive a linear rheostat for the gauge, sorry, NLA a long time ago....

Chris.......
 
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Kauaiboy206

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 9, 2017
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Gear oil from the drive? That would indicte a leak at the yoke seal... Nothing to do with the trim system



Trim guage and trim limit are 2 completely separate systems. The limit is not set by the gauge, it uses a different switch. First question is, which senders does your boat have? If the senders are on the side of the gimbal ring you can order new senders, and they are moderately difficult to fit... A pain to gain access to the wire passage. If they are the older type, using a small hydraulic ram (mounted to the inner transom plate) to drive a linear rheostat for the gauge, sorry, NLA a long time ago....

Chris.......

I've got the one that are mounted on a the gimbal housing, I saw a video of a guys installing them without the removal of the housing and just drilling a new hole for the wires. I guess I meant to say trim oil; because theres a hose that's connected to the trim pump that leads to that part.
 

Kauaiboy206

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 9, 2017
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You Operate it by feel or "ear". The gauge is an option on some systems. My neighbor has one without a gauge. Makes setting the trim less repeatable.

When it's out of the water I can hear a clicking noise when it's fully up or down, but when in the water it's harder to hear any noise from the pump because the boat is stripped at the moment and the engine noise drowns out everything. I've got a 79 sun runner cuddy 19ft and so far I haven't really driven it much 3x to be exact to get a real feel for it yet. Still on thr process of making sure it's mechanically good before really using it for my purposes. I did however hit about 30 yesterday on the wate with 3 adults and 3 kids on board, although at higher rpm the engine started to stress and getting higher temp around 185 or so so I let it sit at around 3500/3700 rpm crusing around 25.
 

GaryDoug

Seaman
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
57
When it's out of the water I can hear a clicking noise when it's fully up or down, but when in the water it's harder to hear any noise from the pump because the boat is stripped at the moment and the engine noise drowns out everything. I've got a 79 sun runner cuddy 19ft and so far I haven't really driven it much 3x to be exact to get a real feel for it yet. Still on thr process of making sure it's mechanically good before really using it for my purposes. I did however hit about 30 yesterday on the wate with 3 adults and 3 kids on board, although at higher rpm the engine started to stress and getting higher temp around 185 or so so I let it sit at around 3500/3700 rpm crusing around 25.

By ear, I meant the sound of the engine speeding up or down and the propeller cavitation. Not the noise from the trim mechanism itself.
 
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achris

More fish than mountain goat
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If you're running along in the boat and it feels either bow or stern 'heavy', use the trim to make a small adjustment, trim of the angle between the bottom of the hull and the propshaft. This changes the angle of the hull to the water. One thing you shouldn't do with the 'trim' is lower the drive and just leave it there all day. That is not what it's for. I 'trim' almost as much as I use the throttle. When I'm at low speed the trim sits pretty much level. As I throttle up I trim IN to help get the boat up on the plane quicker, once the boat is up, I trim UP to level the boat out again and stop it 'bow steering'. I also push more UP trim if it's a bit choppy, letting the 'shoulders' of the hull punish the waves rather than taking them on the bow and having too much spray kick up and mess the windscreen.... UP trim is also critical when running with the sea (a 'following' sea) in keeping the bow up and avoiding the boat broaching (broaching is BAD, dangerous and very disconcerting).....

I see too many people you don't know how to use the trim system to the best advantage, and it's dissappointing. But even worse (and potentially more dangerous) are boats with hydrofoils/wings/etc on a drive/outboard without the 'X' dimension change. To run a hydrofoil the drive/outboard should be installed about 1" to 3" higher than a 'standard' installation. Putting a hydrofoil on a standard installed height engine is asking for a broach...

Chris.......
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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... although at higher rpm the engine started to stress and getting higher temp around 185 or so so I let it sit at around 3500/3700 rpm crusing around 25.

This could be an indication that the impeller needs to be checked/replaced, or that at some time in the past the engine has suffered a loss of cooling water and the water pocket cover has been melted and is now leaking.... Or the heat exchanger needs to be cleaned out (it's a normal 'routine maintenance' item).... if you have a heat exchanger...

GaryDoug said:
By ear, I meant the sound of the engine speeding up or down and the propeller cavitation....

If you are hearing ventilation (you can't hear cavitation) then you have trimmed WAY too far out....

Chris.......

Ventilation- Large loss of propeller thrust due to air being drawn into the propeller blades, usually from the surface above the propeller, usually from too high a trim angle, or a sharp turn at high speed. Less often caused by the engine being installed too far above the 'X' dimension recommended height.... The propeller will show no physical evidence of ventilation....

Cavitation- Very small loss of propeller thrust due to a low pressure area on the back of the propeller blade becoming so low as to vapourise the water and allow the propeller to 'unload' slightly. Evidence of cavitation is usually found as small 'burns' on the back of the propeller blades, usually just back from the leading edge. This is due to the metal being 'boiled off' as the water changes phase (liquid to gas) in the very low pressure and is usually the first sign that cavitation has occurred... Below are some pictures of cavitation burns...




KawiTS033_zpsbd3c94d0.jpg
 
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achris

More fish than mountain goat
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May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Apparently BoatUS has it wrong too in step 4:
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2014/...ng-in-trim.asp

Totally agree, they are WRONG!

I guess the only excuse is like a lot of things, people use the wrong word so often that it gets to a point that most people then think it's the right word and when someone tries to correct them, they get told they are wrong. I guess BoatUS (which is just an owners' group) is just 'going with the flow'.....Doesn't make it right.... (Bit like 'pre-alpha' for MC-1 drives and 'risers' for 'elbows')....

Chris.............

EDIT: Just sent an email to BoatUS suggesting they correct their website information.

This site has it right.... And it's more authoritive than some user group!. https://www.instructortoolkit.co.uk/...t-information/
 
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achris

More fish than mountain goat
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May 19, 2004
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I guess I'm left with nothing to say but to quote a dear friend, and highly respected forum moderator (RIP), "You can't fix stupid"....

To anyone I have offended by pointing out the differences between to often misused words, that is not my intent, and never is my intent. In this world many people, myself included, sometimes use incorrect terminology. Most of the time there is no problem, but in a purely visual environment of a forum, where the only communication is the written word, without an agreed and accurate description of items and situations, the communication falls apart. Nobody knows what others are talking about.... My only intention is to use the right terms to the best of my ability....

Chris..........
 

ajgraz

Lieutenant Commander
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Mar 1, 2010
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1,858
...This boat did not come with a trim gauge, any reason why?...

Possibly because a trim gauge may not be that useful.

I experimented with an analog trim gauge on my CC (yes, it's a Merc OB, NOT an outdrive like you have, but perhaps you would get a similar result). I found that the entire useable, "while underway" trim range was gauged within the bottom 1/16 or so of the needle sweep...the remaining 15/16 of the needle sweep was already into tilt territory. (And yes, my sender and wiring is all fine and reads correct sweep of ohms, that's just the way the gage reads)

It would be like if you had a 32gal tank, but your fuel gage measured only the top 2gal in the tank, and sat on "E" for the remaining 30gal. Not very useful.

(Now, if you're talking about digital / SmartCraft, maybe that could be "calibrated" and/or "truncated" into a useful trim readout. Or maybe a "high end" analog trim gauge would allow you to calibrate the sweep. Or maybe if you're an EE you could design a "resistance multiplier" circuit for your analog sender. But these are all things outside the scope of what I know about.)

As achris and GaryDoug are alluding to, you'll use trim (for one example) to prevent "porpoising" (i.e., trimmed out too far) or broaching / "nose-diving" (i.e., trimmed in too far) depending on the height and period of the chop you're cruising through, and that's a mostly "by feel" thing anyway--as in, you tippy-tap the trim switch a tiny little bit at a time, and when you go from either bow "plowing under" (or bow "bouncing around") to "rock steady," you're trimmed right. No gauge needed.
 
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Kauaiboy206

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 9, 2017
Messages
133
Possibly because a trim gauge may not be that useful.

I experimented with an analog trim gauge on my CC (yes, it's a Merc OB, NOT an outdrive like you have, but perhaps you would get a similar result). I found that the entire useable, "while underway" trim range was gauged within the bottom 1/16 or so of the needle sweep...the remaining 15/16 of the needle sweep was already into tilt territory. (And yes, my sender and wiring is all fine and reads correct sweep of ohms, that's just the way the gage reads)

It would be like if you had a 32gal tank, but your fuel gage measured only the top 2gal in the tank, and sat on "E" for the remaining 30gal. Not very useful.

(Now, if you're talking about digital / SmartCraft, maybe that could be "calibrated" and/or "truncated" into a useful trim readout. Or maybe a "high end" analog trim gauge would allow you to calibrate the sweep. Or maybe if you're an EE you could design a "resistance multiplier" circuit for your analog sender. But these are all things outside the scope of what I know about.)

As achris and GaryDoug are alluding to, you'll use trim (for one example) to prevent "porpoising" (i.e., trimmed out too far) or broaching / "nose-diving" (i.e., trimmed in too far) depending on the height and period of the chop you're cruising through, and that's a mostly "by feel" thing anyway--as in, you tippy-tap the trim switch a tiny little bit at a time, and when you go from either bow "plowing under" (or bow "bouncing around") to "rock steady," you're trimmed right. No gauge needed.

So the trim limit and sender that's attached to my gimbal housing wouldn't really be needed then? I've got it currently oUt and have been okay without it. Again thanks for the responses, all thr info makes it alot easier for me to digest
 

JoLin

Vice Admiral
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Aug 18, 2007
Messages
5,146
The place I've found the trim gauges really useful is in running twins. Though the gauges don't tell me exactly where the drives are trimmed, they do tell me when the drives are trimmed evenly. I spent some time on that with the boat on the hard, adjusting the senders a little bit here and there, so that both gauges display the same degree of trim when both drives are raised/lowered to the same angle. That said, even running a single, I'd prefer to have a gauge than to not have one.

My .02
 

JASinIL2006

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Feb 10, 2012
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My trim limit switch went bad and I was able to get by for a year or so with it bypassed using a jumper. For the most part, that wasn't much more than a slight inconvenience. A couple of times I ran with the drive a bit higher than I should have (I boat on the Mississippi, and a couple of launches require running a chute that is pretty shallow and I got carried away trimming up the outdrive). When I replaced the bellows last year, I installed a new trim limit switch, and I have to say, I really prefer having it.

I can usually tell how the drive is trimmed by how the boat handles, but I really like having the trim gauge work. Especially at low speeds and in skinny water, it's handy to be able to just look down at the gauge and see where the drive is.
 
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