Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

When I finish finals and hurricane repairs on our ranch, I think I am going into the lab to study this. I have some ideas to test these theories in a scientific manner. All angles included. Heat tolerance, corrosion resistance, heat production, fire resistance, etc. Its unfortunate that I do not have the time at the moment to put this topic to bed.
 

snapperbait

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

DIE, TOPIC!!!!!
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<br /><br />Sorry Rabbit, j/k... :D <br /><br />Thank you to all of you for trying to get folks to do the job right and keep em safe.. :)
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

red<br /><br /><br />All the connections on the merc trim pump are external and were exposed to the same amount of salt spay that destroyed the frame and between the two solenoids and power connections there are quite a few of them all are standard factory crimps<br /> <br />I am sure all would have failed long ago with out being sealed with liquid electric tape at the factory and repeated when the unit was serviced <br /><br />It is a standard practice in the merc manual<br /><br />I thought this was supposed to be a crimp VS solder debate and what methods will last the longest I am showing how a double crimp will hold up when sealed <br /><br />Just like a boat water gets in places on land that it should not be and causes the same problems sometimes even worse because it has much more trouble getting out than it did in and turns into a small vapor chamber from the heat with in the enclosure and can really speed up the destruction process <br /><br />tommays
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

True. Well, I hope we exhausted this discussion with what we know. Enough butting heads. Looking forward to a little experimentation in a few weeks hopefully. As I said before, gonna try testing corrosion, heat tolerance, etc. I have an idea for a simple accelerated corrosion tank in mind. Also creating heat by pumping juice through the line and see who lasts the longest. Of course I will submit it to the board before I start running it for suggestions, modifications, critiques, etc. and document it all online after multiple runs. Any suggestions, [email]redmopar@bellsouth.net [/EMAIL] Back to studying for finals for me. Wish me luck!
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

red<br />looking forward to seeing what you come up with please try to find at least on way that solder can be used and still meet the CG regs<br /><br />good luck on your finals my son is craming for his at SUNY buffalo right now to<br /><br />best reguards<br /><br />tommays
05_electricalcon_C.gif
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Hmm, something I hadn't considered. Will involve some reading/correspondence. If that falls through I'll be sure to put a mention of that and a big ol disclaimer in the experiment. Either way it adds to the completeness of it. Thanks ;)
 

BillP

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Originally posted by waterone1:<br /> It's so amusing, the people that ACTUALLY GET PAID to work on and design electronic components, all have the same opinion. Yet the weekend warriors that spout manufacturer's spec sheets think they are educating people. I am happy that you can read. Now, then, If your actual experience matches the following, I would be happy to debate you on the subject. Degree in Electrical Engineering, ABYC certified in electrical, HAM radio license of general or above. Not necessary, however helpful, First Engineer or Officer of a 50 gross ton Passenger Class cruise Vessel. If there is anyone else of those qualifications that has the "opinion" that crimping any low voltage connection is superior to a properly applied solder connection, please post.
Not a debate here but fact finding...What are the specific parameters that the ABYC and USCG use to make connector specs?
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Finally found them. This is from a USCG document per Per 46 CFR 183.115. It can be found at<br /><br /> USCG electrical <br /><br />Here is an excerpt from it, word for word:<br />
ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS <br /><br />Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either: (1) A pressure type connector on each conductor; (2) A solder lug on each conductor; (3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor or (4) A splice that is soldered, brazed or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.<br /><br />
Notice # 2. So we are for sure within regulations as is mentioned explicitly. Only part that worries me is it says "must be made within an enclosure". You won't see me having my 12v systems within an enclosure.
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

red<br />thats the hard part with all codes trying to find the true real world meaning<br /><br />tommays
 

thejeepster02

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Any body heard of the TV show myth busters?<br />I think we have a great show Idea for them!!<br /><br />My thoughts are that solder is used on PC boards for ease of production.<br />After that, a well crimped connection is fine..<br />BUT, for the folks that want to solder also I can’t see a problem.
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Tommays, I hear ya brotha. They make electrical codes, building codes, and USCG regs so easy to interpret(can you smell the sarcasm.) Then you find out in the real world it just depends on who is the individual doing the inspecting and how they preceve the codes.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Originally posted by the Jeepster:<br /> Any body heard of the TV show myth busters?
Yeah, they are right down the street from me, somewhere. Keep thinking I’ll go tooling around the industrial section until I find their fort. I'm watching shows looking for clues. If they ever replace Buster, the crash test dummy, with something looks like a rabbit, you’ll know I found them.
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Need a design for a corrosion test? The chamber design is detailed in ASTM B-117, BELLCORE, MIL-STD-810, MIL-STD-202, MIL-STD-883. They are all the same. MIL specs are available free online.<br /><br />Testing is peformed with a solution of 5% NaCl (Table salt without iodine) at a temperature of 95 degrees farenheit.<br /><br />I know the results (30+ years of testing experience). Crimp connections will meet the manufacturers specification for the stated duration of testing. However, if you want to increase the reliabilty you need to seal the connector either in a hemetically seal connector shell (way too expensive for non-government use), with liquid tape or with solder.<br /><br />Good luck with your experiments.
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Well, that kinda answers that question... Not sure there is any point to doing a corrosion test with that out there. Only thing left is heat tolerance and conductivity at heat. I was thinking for this using an elementary-style styrofoam calorimeter and pumping way-too-much juice through the line to see how much heat is generated. Next heat it in oil and see if it generates resistance at high temps. On econd thought, I may do the corrosion resistance test just for the sake of the message board... Any opinions?
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

The medium you test in has a big effect on the results. I would test in air not oil, and I would do both tests simultaneously.<br /><br />As temperature increases resistance increase. That is why all superconductors are all very cold. <br /><br />Current handling capbility is all specified at a specific temperature Look at the awg ampacity charts and you'll see what I mean. Wire in open air is rated differently that wire in a conduit because it has to do with heat dissapation.<br /><br />As the ambient gets hotter, resistance increases and the self generated heat increases. When you generate more heat then you can dissapate, you go into thermal runaway and the wire melts.<br /><br />The question is which fails sooner, a crimp connection or a soldered connection?<br /><br />I would use a small thermocouple to measure the heat rise.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Originally posted by 18rabbit:<br />... That test requires the connector to be fully functional, and everything intact when heated to 225F above ambient temp.
They are tested for conductivity while heated 225F above ambient temp, in air, as part of 486C certification. Problem: not all connectors you can buy are certified.
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Wish i had a thermocouple, especially a pPC driven one. This is strictly an amature experiment done on an extremely small budget to answer a more general question, which is better crimp alone or crimp and solder. It is not intended to be of industrial or collegate levels because of the lack of industrial or collegate funds. <br /><br />But lets get technical anyways since we are headed that way Chuck. It'll help keep me in check.<br /><br />If one connection generates more heat than the other(in this case when it is overloaded), i beleive it is reasonable to assume that the connection is the less desireable one. The greater rate heat is generated, the sooner thermal runaway will occour or in the case of the real world a fire(if improperly wired) or a blown fuse due to increased resistance, or connection failure. In this case of comparing thermal properties, the plan was not to run the experiments simultaneously because of lack of tools to do so. I was thinking oil/calorimeter using a thermometer because of its ability to dissapate heat as well as its high boiling point and lack of electrical conductivity. The same amount of oil used in the same insulating container with the same current source at the same starting temps should give us an idea of the heat produced, or delta Temp/ delta Time relativly of course. I could produce the exact number of calories produced if I had all the thermal properties of the oil, but I think it unnecessary because we are only doing a comparative study. I originally thought of using water, but it may boil and produce steam and then we would lose heat at a high rate and screw with the results.<br /><br />On to corrosion resistance. I have some goals in mind. Make the expreiment last a shorter amount of time and acheive failure of both of the connectors(don't want to wait months or years). Record the time interval of the failures to determine the original question. Run both types of connections as well as multiple connections simultaneously to minimize time and maximize accuracy also. I am still more vague on my ideas for this, but this is what I came up with. Closed clear container for observability as well as creating a more concentrated harsh environment(probably a plastic gator-ade 1 gal container.) Use a salt water solution that is completely saturated at a higher temperature to acheive maximum saturation. Suspend the connections in pure oxygen and use a venturi effect to initially suspend saltwater sol'n in the O2. Possibly create a cathode/anode effect by applying charge to the ol' solution and connector(gonna have to pull out the chemestry book to remember how to charge it to maximize ion transfer.) Weight and pulley the connections from the outside of the container with a light weight to see when the connections physically fail. Possibly add chemicals(acid) early on? Dunno about that one, it may screw with our results. <br /><br />As far as impedence at temperature, i'm not sure I can deteremine that accurately with what I have. Talking very high temps with nothing to measure them. Also we may get enough info from the first experiment. Its close to being filed th the round file.<br /><br />Let me know. Hopefully I will win the science fair!(kidding)
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

My bigest concern is the O2. It can get a little dicey and quite exciting if not handle properly. I would use plain shop air.<br /> <br />The chamber that is used commercially uses venturi action to pick up the salt water solution and spray it out of an atomizing nozzle, made of plastic of course. You want to make sure your air is humid so the nozzle doesn't clog. That shouldn't be a problem in Florida :) <br /><br />5% NaCl is plenty corrosive. Dissimilar metals will dissappear within 24 hours.<br /><br />Applying a charge will accelerate the process.<br /><br />Your assumption is correct, if one connection generates more heat than the other, it will fail sooner. The heating and cooling of the connection will induce stress. The wider the temperature range and the faster the temperature change, the more stress induced.<br /><br />To load the terminals use your lead sinkers connected with monofilament line. <br /><br />If the experiment gets too large to fit in your container, use a fish tank. Testing is normally done with a peaked roof so the solution doesn't drip onto the test specimens. Tilting the tank at a 45 degree angle will work.<br /><br />Hey, when you win the National Science Fair, send me a picture.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Ok - I can't resist. I am an Electrical Engineer. I have a BSEE and an MSEE. I am a member of Tau Beta Pi (engineering honor society) and Eta Kappa Nu (electrical engineering honor society) I haven't paid my IEEE dues in a long time, but I was once a member. Before I continue, this subject is better suited to an ME as we are talking about mechanical failure. However, I'll share my experience.<br /><br />I worked in A&D (Aerospace and Defense) for about 9 years total. 4 with the Electronics Research Lab at NU and 5 with Raytheon.<br /><br />Finally, I rewired my 79 Formula with twin 350s from scratch and have since done projects on several other boats.<br /><br />At the research lab I designed and built telemetry systems for the airforce geophysics lab and SDI program office. All of these systems flew either on rockets into space or, in a few cases, the space shuttle. Since these were "one shot" projects for the most part, they had to meet the requirements for space flight and be of the highest possible quality. All subsystems were tested individually and as part of the system for vibration and force at extreme environmental conditions on large shock tables in environmental chambers.<br /><br />95% of all electrical connection on these systems were mechanical (i.e., solderless). All circuit boards were what are called wire wrap boards where a wire gun is used to warp wire around a gold plated post. Most connectors had the terminals crimped onto the wires and then each inserted into a locking connector shell. Each terminal had a special crimper designed specifically for that terminal type and that type only.<br /><br />Some connectors did have solder connections where the leads had to be soldered into the connector. These solders joints had to be made by skilled techs and each examined under magnification for voids, cracks and proper wetting. They also required strain relief and in most cases even be potted. These cables were few and far between.<br /><br />My experience at Raytheon was much the same except due to high volumes, we used printed circuit boards soldered in a wave solder machine and conformal coated for corrosion protection.<br /><br />I think most of this debate comes down to something mentioned earlier- a bad crimp made with a cheap tool is a bad connection! So, when crimping is discussed people get the wrong idea because many have never seen it done properly. In the case of marine connections, we are talking about using double ratcheting crimpers and a high quality terminal like those made by Ancor Marine.<br /><br />If you use a cheap crimper or even a pair of pliers, you had better solder it because it won't last.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Here is what a proper crimper looks like:<br /><br />
double_ratchets_tool.jpg
<br /><br />The jaws have three slots corresponding to the wire gauges being crimped (i.e., yellow, blue and red terminals)<br /><br />Here is an illustration of a proper crimped connection:<br /><br />
05_electricalcon_C.gif
 
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