Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Jack L<br /><br />You got it
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Looks like I have opened a big ol can-o-worms with this one. Good fun though.<br /><br />LOL Rabbit, it'll be the experiment heard around the world. I may take you up on the samples if ebay falls through on me. If I win the auction, I'll just march down to the marine supply to score some wire and connectors. The cost on those isn't too bad. Could use some anyways, i'm about to ditch my manual bildge pump for an automatic one. The last midnight storm in the flats where I had to spend in my boat taught me the value of that one. Besides, the more SAE wire I tear out of my boat the happier I am. On mine, ALL of it is SAE and none is marine grade. Found some "zip wire" or what you would call lamp cord on my boat also. :eek: Its soon to be gone. Insulation is cracking up real nice.<br /><br />As far as the solder only connections(#1), i'm not sure if that is worthwile. I don't think anyone would ever reccomend those for marine use. If for some reason that wire approaches 400 degrees, it will fail for sure when the wire just falls out. Good call on using the double crimp with the el-cheapo crimper though.<br /><br />I do, however, wish anchor supplied non-insulated connectors. Makes soldering much easier. They are hard to find anymore. The ones I use I just cut the insulator off, crimp, solder, liquid electrical tape, and shrink tube. Unless I am feeling lazy, sometimes I ditch the shrink tube. The connectors I use are achent ones I got when my bro worked at a company called Gould years ago(which no longer exists.) Some of you computer and electronics old timers(no insult intended) may have heard of it. Got a big ol' box of em as well as some nice throw-aways including a couple of 1000w inverters.<br /><br />Ralph, I got all excited when I started to read those NASA documents. Unfortunatly the specs for crimping and soldering aren't in there. It seems to end at section 8. Section 12 on is where it is at. There may be a second PDF that makes up the rest of the document? However you found the first maybe you could find the second? Could be I am just retarted from not sleeping in 48 hrs too and I am not seeing it.<br /><br /><br />Any ideas on how to include alcohol in the experiment would be appreciated. It seems to work for my cooking...<br /><br />Gawd, I may have to actually clean up my shop. Git it all nice for pictures. Bench space would be nice too, I have a 4-wheeler motor all disassembled waiting for parts. They call me, project man... :cool:
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Wow, this is going to be a long winter. I haven't heard of wire wrapping for many years....thank God. Since the average connection on a boat is not stressed to it's maximum thermal breakdown, I would suggest that any tests be made considering nominal current (heat) and maximum wire to connector mechanical stress.<br />As I have stated all along, there is nothing wrong with a properly applied mechanical connection. However, a good mechanical connection, along with a properly heated and applied solder connection is far superior. Once again, we are talking about the typical marine wiring (stranded wire) and not solid wire.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

It seems the most common failure mode for solder joints is thermal cycling under vibration. The joints develop cracks and begin to fail intermittently. <br /><br />The vibration experienced on a boat is why solid wire can't be used. NASA talks about preventing wicking if solder is used because it turns your stranded wire into a kind of solid wire right at the most common point of failure - the wire/connector interface.<br /><br />In the NASA spec on stripping and soldering they talk about how the wire must be placed in the solder cup vertically during soldering so that gravity will help prevent the solder from wicking up the wire, under the insulation.<br /><br />If somebody has time today, go to Google and search "solder joint failure" and post anything worth sharing...<br /><br />Red, if you look in that NASA doc it will point you to all the others. There is a URL in the applicable specs section.<br /><br />Rather than run an independent test, just search the net and you'll find all the scientific tests you want on soldering and crimping. This been a big issue since man decided to head to space. I've found plenty on one or the other but have yet to find a scientific discussion of doing both. I am sure it is out there though... nothing I trust that is. I did read a few discussions where people claim doing both weakens the crimp due to the thermal expansion experienced during soldering therefore making a connection not as good as either alone - no data was given though.
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Ralph,<br /><br />The solder joint failure modes you describe are on PC boards. Testing with temperature and vibration is call stress screening. The purpose is to precipitate latent or manufacturing defects.<br /><br />The problem with solder for space or aerospace applications is weight. You need the terminal anyway you connect it to the wire. Eliminating solder eliminates weight.<br /><br />Redmopar,<br /><br />How long was all that sub-standard wiring in your boat? I bet you didn't have a fire and everything worked fine. Hmmmmm, What does that say about standards and regulations?
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Well, did a little searching like ya suggested. Yeilded alot of info on the corporate evolution to lead free solder because of environmental concerns and failure of lead-free. I did find some info on solder only conection failure.<br /><br /> Magellan and Galileo <br /><br />Alpha metals <br /><br />Bell Labs <br /><br />Most out there in the lead based world have to do with thermal cycling on printed circuit boards. Not quite where we are at with the crimp solder combo. Also no research on corrosion resistance. It may be out there but I am out of time this morning. Talk to y'all later
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Chuck, not had fires. Have had many failures. Connector corrosion mainly and a few bad switches and gauges and a bad fuel sender. Got many hours into those in the last year. Many of them failed when it sat for 10+ years. No wire failure except the lamp cord. Was well on its way to a dead short. The insulation was falling off.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Chuck,<br /><br />These were on wiring harnesses, not PWBs per se. Hence the whole discussion of wicking and solder cups. If I find the NASA doc again later I'll post the link. While weight may be a concern, reliability is the biggest concern - you only get one shot with millions at stake and in the case of maned flight, lives.<br /><br />As for regs and standards they exist for a reason. For example, how many times did the shuttle fly before the foam finally caused a hole in the heat shield? How many times did it fly before the SRB O-ring failed? How many times did Apollo fly before a relay caused an explosion?<br /><br />Tons of time and money are spent on failure analysis and reg generation to prevent these situations. Some time you can anticipate them in advance and sometimes you learn after the fact. Substandard parts and procedures can cost lives. We've discussed this topic many times here. Mostly surrounding discussions of using non-marine grade engine components. Finally I posted news stories from this season alone about all the boat explosions. <br /><br />This is worth a read:<br /><br />
Have a Blast<br />By Pete McDonald<br />September 2002<br /><br />Don't skimp on maintenance.<br /><br />Almost immediately after taking on 90 gallons of gasoline, a 35' Chris-Craft exploded. The operator was thrown clear across the fuel dock, and his wife and dog were catapulted into the water. Pieces of the boat flew 250 feet. The resulting fire burned the boat down to the chines. Luckily, nobody was killed, but the blame for this disaster fell squarely on the owner. Why? Shoddy maintenance. <br /><br />"When you go the cheapest route possible, this is what happens," says Joel Fuoco of the Nassau County Marine Bureau in Long Island, New York, the investigator on the case. Fuoco listed three things he alleges the owner, a do-it-yourself, did wrong. <br /><br />When he replaced the fuel fill and fittings on his boat, he used galvanized pipe from a hardware store and didn't double clamp it. Dissimilar metals were touching, causing corrosion on both the fill and the tank. <br /><br />The owner replaced the fill but not the hose. The fuel hose had wear, so fumes penetrated it and filtered into the bilge. Only one of his four blowers worked, so when he flipped them on, the fumes weren't evacuated. <br /><br />The worst offense: Installing an automotive starter motor. Unlike marine starters, automotive starters are not spark protected—there are no seals to protect the inner workings from collecting gas fumes. In this case, the fumes seeped right into the casing. When he tried to start up after fueling, the spark from his ignition lit the fumes in the ignition casing and—boom!—a 35' boat was reduced to rubble. <br />The funny thing is, prior to the explosion, the boat didn't appear to be a junkyard dog. The hull was in prime condition, with high-quality fit and finish. By all accounts, it was a beautiful vessel. The owner spent a lot of money making it look nice but, when it came to the boat's vital mechanical systems…. <br /><br />It's amazing that people will spend tens—if not hundreds—of thousands of dollars on a boat and then nickel-and-dime the maintenance. Because a boat's systems are often exposed to harsh elements, the more you boat, the more maintenance it needs. That's why it's so tempting to find some inexpensive parts to fill in the gaps. But when you're dealing with mechanical and electrical systems, get the good stuff. When replacing wiring, use high-grade tinned-copper wire. For diesel engines, use high-pressure braided hoses; for gas engines, use A1 rubber hoses. Double clamp everything with stainless-steel clamps. Use stainless-steel or chromed-bronze fittings. (Some of the new plastic fittings work just as well, too.) And above all else, stay out of the auto parts store. <br />
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

My point was standards and regulations are written for worse case scenarios. Just because you don't follow a regulation doesn't mean you're automatically going to have a problem. Ditto, just because you follow the regulations doesn't guarantee anything either. Sometimes common sense and your own sense of well being come into play. In this case, if you feel better about soldering, go for it.<br /><br />Also, as anyone who has ever developed a product knows, "Sometimes you have to shoot the engineer and get on with production". <br /><br />I understand that the soldering procedure was for harnesses. I was saying stress screening was developed for PC boards.<br /><br />The Apollo problem was caused by mistake in upgrading the 02 tank heater. The O-ring failure was caused because the original sealing putty contained asbestos. It was swapped out for an "equivalent" product without asbestos. The failure mode that brought down the shuttle, debris striking the tile during ascent, was well known, but judged a low risk, ahead of time. None of these incidents had anything to do with meeting standards or regulations.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Few people are qualified to know when a reg can be safely ignored. I chaired a failure review board for 4 years and can tell you from experience that specs are not simply developed in a vacuum but are more the codification of "lessons learned" often the hard way. Hence, my referencing the above failures. Not to show how a spec was ignored, but how new specs get created.<br /><br />Let me just say this, and then I am done. I am the Captain of my ship. As the Captain, I have a duty and obligation that dates back centuries to keep my passengers safe. If something should ever go wrong, Heaven forbid, I don't want it to be something I could have easily avoided. And, if it ever turned out, somebody got hurt because I was trying to save a few bucks and cut a few corners, I would not be able to live with myself. It's just not worth it.<br /><br />In a boat or on in the air, failure is often catastrophic<br /><br />
Boat explosion kills 1 <br />Police seeking cause of blast that sinks vessel in Lake Macatawa <br /><br />By RICHARD HARROLD <br />Staff writer <br />Sunday, July 25, 2004<br />
a1.jpg
 

chuckz

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Ralph,<br /><br />I agree with you that regulations and standards have a purpose. That's how I make my living.<br /><br />Within the context of soldering vs. crimping it's not soley a question of regulations, there has to be exactly what you said, a sense that you did the best possible thing to safeguard your passengers. When dealing with 12 volt electrical systems they have a lot of inherent safety. It's really a reliability and maintainabilty issue when it comes to 12 volt terminations.<br /><br />As for standards, they're always written by committee. The quality of the work depends a whole lot on the committee chair. I've seen standards written with requirements soley intended to lock out the competition.<br /><br />One last thought. It's tough for one standard to cover eveything from "ocean liners to rowboats". I'm sure that there are times the the standards are whoafully insufficient for one end of the spectrum and over kill for the other. At some point common sense and good engineering judgement has to be factored into the equation.<br /><br />Been fun sparring with you :) <br /><br />P.S. Just noticed that most those guys standing up watching the fire aren't wearing PFD's. I think that's covered in a different thread.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

This seems worth sharing:<br /><br />Thanks to Lysle Gray, Technical Director, ABYC, Paul Michalczyk of ANCOR Marine, and Jim Vaughn of FTZ Industries, all experts in marine wiring, for their consultations in preparing this article. <br /><br />Why is crimping preferred over soldering when joining wire to electrical connectors and why do American Boat and Yacht Council Standards specify that solder shall only be used in combination with crimping, except in the case of battery cables? <br /><br />To be sure, this subject still provokes heated discussion, especially among those who see soldering of crimped joints as extra insurance of reliability.Both mechanical and electrical integrity in the marine environment are essential to reliable connections. The crimped joint provides both, if properly done. Reliable crimps require that both wire and connector be of matching sizes, that proper tools are used, and that the materials (wire and connectors) be of marine grade quality to begin with. A combination wire cutter,stripper, and crimper is available at good hardware and marine dealers. The crimping part of the tool actually comprises dies which exert a swaging action on connector and wire, effectively created a "weld". The tool was designed to confine the connector and wire so that the pressure exerted by the die was concentrated at the joint. This is why ordinary pliers are not acceptable. They will crush the connector barrel alright, but both connector and wire will squish out to the side, making a joint which is mechanically weak, and electrically suspect. <br /><br />A good crimping tool will have dies for both insulated and non-insulated connectors in at least three sizes: #8-10, #12-14, and #16-18. it is important to make the crimp with the right die. <br /><br />If you are getting loose connections, or if you see cracks in the connector barrel or insulation, you are using the wrong die. <br /><br />Get a marine rated connector a your dealer's and carefully examine the inside of the barrel which receives the stripped wire. Note the grooving which is designed to grip the wire, preventing stretching, and focus the crimping pressure to effect welding action. The crimp "work hardens" the copper of the connector so that the joint is mechanically sound. <br /><br />Multi-stranded wire is required in marine applications (except when a heavy gauge, well-supported, dressed wire is used solely as a ground bus), made up of fine-stranded(e.g. 30 guage), pre-tinned wire for best results. Automotive hook-up wire is usually not pre-tinned, and bare copper oxidizes (corrodes) in salt air. <br /><br />Once a good electrical/mechanical joint is made, it is essential to protect it from water or moist salt air. The best way to do this now is by using shrink tube insulation, especially the type which includes a heat activated adhesive on the inner surface. The shrink tubing is put on before the crimp is made, of sufficient length to overlap the wire insulation by a 1/2" or so. Application of heat (a heat gun used for striping paint will do) causes the adhesive to liquefy and the tubing to shrink tight to the wire and connector.<br /><br />But soldering is a time-honored method. What's wrong with it now?<br /><br />Good soldering requires a certain technique. A cold soldered joint may be worse than useless, since it may look OK to an unpracticed eye. Good soldering is especially difficult when making up a splice in a confined or limited access space. Using a proper tool, a good crimp is easy.<br /><br />As mentioned, crimping action work hardens the connector barrel, making the joint mechanical strong and stable. If you solder a crimped joint, you may, in heating the connector, anneal(soften) the copper, making the joint loosen. Now it is the solder only which provides the strength of the joint. But if the joint is subjected to vibration, the solder, in absorbing mechanical energy over a period of time, may crystallize, and the joint may actually fail altogether. <br /><br />Melted solder may flow through "wicking" action up the strands of wire, thus creating a stiff, solid section just behind a terminal. Since the terminal itself is made fast to a post or stud, the place where the solder stiffened section abruptly merges with the stranded, unsoldered wire is relatively unsupported. Vibrational flexing of the wire is concentrated at this interface, leading to hardening, embrittlement, and eventual failure. <br /><br />Contrary to popular belief, solder is not impervious to corrosion. It is a composition of lead and tin. When connected to copper (wire and terminal) in a salt atmosphere, galvanic corrosion can occur, resulting in leaching out of the lead, leaving a powdery residue which is both electrically and mechanically worthless. <br /><br />Whether crimped only or soldered and crimped, protection from salt atmosphere is important. For wiring splices, shrink tubing is the way to go. For terminal strips, the are liquid sealants available which can painted on after a connection is made up. <br /><br />Recently, connectors which incorporate shrink-tube insulation sleeves have been introduced to the consumer marine market. The connector-wire joint is first crimped, thea heat gun is used to seal the connector insulation to the wire cover making a waterproof joint. This would appear to be the best method for making up connections, especially below decks, or in other salt atmosphere spaces. <br /><br />It is rare when convenience and reliability are served by the same process. But crimped connections, properly made up and protected from the environment offer the skipper both ease and dependability. The local yard has even been crimping battery cables for the past several years, using a special swaging tool.
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Bah, what does NASA know anyways? Kidding of course. <br /><br />You threw a new term at me Ralph, at least a new usage. I always thought swaging was expanding tubes while retaining their shape(like exhaust pipe fittings, etc.) What does swaging mean here?
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

swage <br /><br />A tool used in bending or shaping cold metal.<br /> <br />A stamp or die for marking or shaping metal with a hammer. <br /><br />tr.v. swaged, swag·ing, swag·es <br />To bend or shape by or as if by using a swage
 

18rabbit

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Now that it has been brought up, I’m not entirely sure what swaging is either. I know it is a common with fittings for high pressure hydraulic lines. Always thought it was a way of applying pressure equally all the way around the fitting.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

a swage is:<br /><br />A tool used in bending or shaping cold metal.<br /><br />swaging is:<br /><br />To bend or shape using a swage.
 

tvpear12

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

WHO GIVES A $&!T :mad: <br /><br />IF YOU GUYS RESPONDED TO THE PROBLEMS HERE LIKE YOU HAVE REPLYED TO THIS POST,EVERY DAM BOAT IN THE WORLD WOULD BE FIXED :mad:
 

JustMrWill

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Any comments on the Anchor connectors that have the shrink wrap and glue "built in". I would think that after crimping and applying heat to the shrink wrap that they would be air/water tight and resist corrosion well. <br /><br />-JustMrWill
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

They are very nice for a quick, simple crimp job. Just be careful and don't overheat them. The only downside to them is I have seen them open up on the end after awhile if there is alot of flex in the life of the wire as the insulator is stiff.
 
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