Rev 4 to something else

alldodge

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280 OSX with twin Merc 250 V8 verados and Rev 4 19P
Boat loaded is about 8800 Lb

The Rev 4 is great going forward but not backing up. This boat comes with 3 blade props and don't know why they put Rev 4 on it. The hole shot is great but it goes into guardian (guessing) on the Tach at 6K RPMs and I still have throttle left.

I say guessing it's at guardian with rpm's because of having more throttle, and if I push it on it stays right there. Have a scanner so need to check for percentage of Guardian and percentage of load. That's what Merc list of how to determine which prop is best because Verado will limit RPM if need be

Looking at original Mirage 21P, not Mirage plus because I want as much power backing up as i can get

Thought's?
 

Stinnett21

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You're ahead of most of us here but I'll jump in with some comments. Hard to believe a big 4 blade won't back up well. What's the deal with that? Why do you say old Mirage vs Mirage Plus? Sounds like you have prior experience with the Mirage line. You say guardian do you mean rev limiter? (Same thing I guess). The boat is new this season right? Will they switch out for you?
 

alldodge

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The M does not have any cupping of the blades. The M+ has cupping. More cup means more bite forward but less bite reverse.

The new verados have Gardin built in so need to watch both to get max performance
 
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QBhoy

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I’d avoid the mirage and even the later plus version. Had their day and their place once upon a time…but certainly, there is better and much smarter props around since.
You’ll know plenty already about props AD, I’m sure…but need to be careful where you go from here. It might help to tell you that I know that generally the rev4 of any pitch..will act like at least another inch of pitch, than other props of the same pitch. I know of a number of examples personally that absolutely do. Same for the tempest plus 3 blade. Which is the 3 blade version of the rev4 or near as damn it. Also acts like another inch..speaking in terms of rpms from way down low all the way up. So if you are a little under propped with say a 19” rev4 or tempest plus…and go to a 19” of most any other prop from merc I know of…you’ll be further still under propped again. I’ve a 19” tempest plus I use most times. It will 100% show lower rpm at speeds from displacement up to almost 2/3 throttle, when compared to the 20” enertia (not eco) I also use. Then to absolutely emphasise my point..jeez…compared to the likes of a laser 2 of 19”…there are hundreds of rpm difference anywhere in the rpm.
I love the tempest 3 blade. Very little slip and despite acting like a little more pitch for rpm…somehow doesn’t act like more pitch for getting on plane. Will plane just as quick or quicker than any other prop around that pitch I’ve tried out. Big blades that are handy on a rig like yours. Takes loads of trim and keeps holding on. Will certainly see less slip than the rev4 at the top end too. But just depends on how much more you have to go (if the limiter wasn’t getting in the way). If you are only just nudging it occasionally, then a 19” tempest might just bring it a hair below that, having less slip). But if you’re hitting it easy, all day any day you open the throttles..and not lacking on getting out the hole…take her up an inch or so I’d say. Up to you…but I’d ditch the mirage idea. Know of a few of them on scarabs and formulas. Not impressed and they all slip a fair bit top end, that I’ve known. Heavy big buggers to get turning too. I’d be trying out some tempests or enertia/enertia eco’s out. Don’t know personally of any boats with the eco on them here. Can’t speak highly enough of the normal enertia though. Would they suit your boat though ?? I don’t know. Very light things and thin blades. Lightning quick as a result. The bravo 4 blade might be worth a try too. These are the best of the 4 blades that I’ve seen for sure. But again…suitable for you ?? Who knows. For a 4 blade…fairly good for slip top end. For a 4 blade…I’ll emphasise! Keen to hear how you go. But thought I’d make you aware of the anomaly around the behaviour of the rev4 and tempest, in terms of being careful if the thinking might have been that you can use their data and figures as a reference when working out what prop to get next. They don’t tend to play the usual game at all. Definitely behave like an inch more…as a given.
 

alldodge

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Don't want another 4 blade, I'm getting more stern lift now then I like

Have 2 issues I'm trying to fix. Want to reduce WOT RPM and Get better bite when in Reverse

The original Mirage has less cup so it should bite better in Rev. The added 1/8 diameter should be a mute point overall.

Looking at the Tempest 21P showing 14 5/8 diameter so it should spin up ok

The 280 OSX with 250 Yam's was tested with 19P by 15 1/4 and reached faster speeds

Maybe I should look for similar props to try
 

QBhoy

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Don't want another 4 blade, I'm getting more stern lift now then I like

Have 2 issues I'm trying to fix. Want to reduce WOT RPM and Get better bite when in Reverse

The original Mirage has less cup so it should bite better in Rev. The added 1/8 diameter should be a mute point overall.

Looking at the Tempest 21P showing 14 5/8 diameter so it should spin up ok

The 280 OSX with 250 Yam's was tested with 19P by 15 1/4 and reached faster speeds

Maybe I should look for similar props to try
Ok. The Enertia eco likely comes close for diameter. Don’t know exact dimensions for them…but I know for sure they have a fairly huge diameter and design had certain boat types in mind, yours and similar likely amongst them perhaps.
How easily you reckon you’re seeing the limiter as you are AD ?
 

QBhoy

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Just read that a 19” enertia eco has a 16” diameter. I also presume that they are made from the same lightweight X7 stainless alloy material that the normal enertia is. My enertia in one hand and any other prop that ain’t x7 in the other hand…there is a considerable difference in their weight. Clever stuff. Not cheap though.
Maybe not even an option in terms of being even able to made fit on your mercs shaft at all…but I was recently impressed with the ability of the Suzuki large diameter stainless prop, on a 300hp Suzuki, attached to a 28ft rib. She performed very well.
Entirely up to you AD…but should I be lucky enough to own such a machine as you do…I definitely wouldn’t be hanging old outdated and very ‘blah’ (to me) nothing particularly special, mirage props on her. They had their use for certain boats back in the day..but that was before they were outdated and superseded by more recent props from merc. Should be respected and acknowledged for what they were once upon a time…but could they keep with some of the newer things these days ? Almost certainly not, I’d think. The mirage plus attempt at rejuvenating, was not terrible..but again..that was a fair few years ago. The tempest plus is likely where it is today, and does a job of it, that the mirage and laser 2 used to work at. I think anyway.
 

alldodge

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How easily you reckon you’re seeing the limiter as you are AD ?
Not seeing a limiter so to speak, I watch the scanner which will display 4 elements

RPM = Engine speed
Demand Linear = Demand request by operator
Demand = requested by control software
Demand Linear with Guardian (DLG) = Demand requested by Guardian

My new scanner is a 3 line unit so I can only see 3 of them. But these motors have adaptive speed control with DTS. So if the motor is not seeing max safe rpm then the Demand should reach 100% and DLG should be less then 100%. If DLG reaches 100% and Demand is not at 100% then power stays less then and max RPM is held steady

I have a instructional vid from Merc that explains it. It can be done without a scanner or G3 but it's better with

Enteria Eco may be the way to go, but my thought on it is the Eco has added cup
 

QBhoy

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Not seeing a limiter so to speak, I watch the scanner which will display 4 elements

RPM = Engine speed
Demand Linear = Demand request by operator
Demand = requested by control software
Demand Linear with Guardian (DLG) = Demand requested by Guardian

My new scanner is a 3 line unit so I can only see 3 of them. But these motors have adaptive speed control with DTS. So if the motor is not seeing max safe rpm then the Demand should reach 100% and DLG should be less then 100%. If DLG reaches 100% and Demand is not at 100% then power stays less then and max RPM is held steady

I have a instructional vid from Merc that explains it. It can be done without a scanner or G3 but it's better with

Enteria Eco may be the way to go, but my thought on it is the Eco has added cup
Ah. Very interesting stuff there. Does she record maximum rpm achieved somewhere in there ? Like the vessel view does ?
Anyway…just on the eco. There is or was something about them that I thought let the side down. Can’t think exactly what that was…but it was something mentioned or gathered during a comparison test with other props. I’ll be able to find it again I’m sure. With it didn’t make sense to me or something didn’t impress me the way it might of about the test results. I’ll go find it again to see what it was.
 

alldodge

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To clarify further for those who may wish to know about Demand control and how it works when propping.
Demand level is King, you want to see the Demand at 100% at WOT. This means the motor is giving everything it has and is not being held back

This pic shows under prop.
Slide1.JPG

This has correct prop
Slide2.JPG
 
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flashback

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Take this as a grain of salt.
On my previous 21ft scorpion I had a 21p x 14 1/4, I came across a deal on a Michigan 19p x 15 1/2 that I bought for spare. It soon was my choice. The extra diameter gave me better brakes and didn't have any adverse effect on top end.
 

alldodge

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Note
Q PM'ed me with a vid of using a 17P Rev4 and 17P Mirage Plus. The M+ did better the R4 overall and for me that was surprising because my thought has been, 4 blade prop vs 3 blade means 3 blade should be 2 inch more to be the same.

Now that said, the test did not use a scanner attached to motors so I don't know if the demand issue was involved. He has newer motors so this may be of note worthy, just don't know

 

QBhoy

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Note
Q PM'ed me with a vid of using a 17P Rev4 and 17P Mirage Plus. The M+ did better the R4 overall and for me that was surprising because my thought has been, 4 blade prop vs 3 blade means 3 blade should be 2 inch more to be the same.

Now that said, the test did not use a scanner attached to motors so I don't know if the demand issue was involved. He has newer motors so this may be of note worthy, just don't know

Yeah. Interesting too I thought. Knew the rev 4 would have lots of slip, the quicker the boat is. Will have more again on your boat..and the performance it has.
 

Pmt133

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I do run a non plus mirage on my boat and played around with different props quite a bit on the old engine. I will start by saying my boat is probably an exception to the rules as it is an old heavy deep V... so more or less what the thing was designed to go on.

I ran a plus of the same pitch (19) and a plus in a 17p as well as a slew of other props I don't remember. I will say this was almost 15 years ago and The enertia was relatively new at the time so that wasn't tested. But everything came back to the regular mirage 19p. I actually tested a lab finished mirage in the same pitch too, a non plus... and even that made no noticeable difference though since mine has a little wear on the leading edge I lost a slight harmonic I had right at 2900.

I even reached out to a couple prop shops both then and again this year when I started prop testing with the repower and they all came back with the same conclusion... it shouldn't run as well as it does. Being I was willing to pay for a new prop and was steered away from it by a few different vendors... I guess it does work pretty well in my case.

My observations at the time were: the regular mirage 19 was really heavy. You hear it when you click in gear as it thumps. The plus in both pitches had very poor reverse manners but were quiet on the shift. They also didn't improve much of anything. Trim, lift, etc remained the same which was expected. I ran and still have a Turning point hustler 4 blade and that is my emergency prop... it was free and works... I don't like anything about it.

I will say if you go to a non plus you're stuck with a pressed hub. Around here there aren't many shops that can deal with that anymore so keep that in mind. And the newest ones were manufactured some 30 years ago. So finding a clean pair in the size you need probably won't be easy. I agree on a modern hull there are better options but there are still some instances where they just run really well.

I know that didn't help much, but maybe it did. Good luck with whatever you go with.
 

alldodge

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Good read thanks
I will say if you go to a non plus you're stuck with a pressed hub. Around here there aren't many shops that can deal with that anymore so keep that in mind.
This is something I haven't heard before about prop shops

I have found non plus Mirage with solid hubs. Were producing them before they started using the hub style
 

Pmt133

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Good read thanks

This is something I haven't heard before about prop shops

I have found non plus Mirage with solid hubs. Were producing them before they started using the hub style
I've seen the solid hubs as well though they seem to be higher pitch... 25+ around here.

I had a friend spin a hub over the summer... there aren't many prop shops around to begin with but one local one claimed they were able to do the work... after the 4th haul out they got it right... kept spinning under any sort of load. There are a couple larger shops around that I'm sure still do and do it well but the local guys I guess can't be bothered or just don't do it much anymore. Being as most of the boats I see now are fairly new, they probably don't see to many press in ones anymore.

The flow torq is nice since you can DIY. Just an observation from the summer. Though I will say unless you hit something the rubber seems to last almost indefinitely.
 

alldodge

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Ones I found are standard pitches. Also depending on how you can use newer flow torque hubs that a stainless steel
 

dingbat

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